Is Leica losing its' touch with new releases?

[Planetwide]

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2 hours ago, jaapv said:

I would say that the undisputed  M11 problems are the result of attempting to push too much present day technology into a vintage design and concept. That is a design failure. No amount of quality control can prevent such issues. 

Are you saying that the M series has run its course. That any future M's are not possible? 

Or

Leica selected poor components for its circuit boards, or it was poor manufacturing (supplier), that their design for the M11 was flawed?

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[jaapv]

No it is not the end of the M series but in my opinion they should return to the essence of the M series which is the best manual oriented camera with a rangefinder and stop trying to squeeze a Sony into an M3. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

All systems have issues. But Leica is the most unreliable/unfinished/low QC brand in the world right now. And it's definitely affecting my use of Leica cameras and my desire for the brand. I get that it's a small company with a lot of human input. I expect that something made entirely by a machine will be somewhat more reliable. But I want better.

6 months for a repair is unacceptable. More so when a company is profitable. And no, I don't buy into it takes too long to train them BS. It's been this way for decades. Yes I'm sure you can drive to Wetzlar and jump the que. But that means the rest of us wait even longer so a precious few have a wonderful experience. My SL's have been reliable, mostly. Same with my Q's. But I've had more than one M body where the RF was out on opening the box. More than one lens also out. And you've paid thousands for it to go on a 4-6 month holiday, unused. Not good enough. When I had the one issue with my SL601, it took 5 months and I used those cameras for work. I believe in self sufficiency but that's a long time to align a sensor. My personal record was a 90mm Summarit that had two trips to Germany and that took 11 months.

I just picked up my A1 mk2 and the 28-70 f2.0. It's boring as bat shit. Some call it a 7K firmware upgrade. I hate the buttons and menus. But it just works. Charged the battery and set up the camera. I didn't think for a nano second that it might have issues. I always have that with a new Leica. What's the catch? The IQ of the 28-70 is fabulous. Basically a set of SL APO's in one lens. I'm not wondering where the glitches are, or what type of SD cards might work. Or whether they'll ever get the animal firmware out of *beta*. I prefer the SL3 body in every way but I'm so tired of seeing that *beta* AF thing. It's been a YEAR already. I don't think they'll ever do better. Maybe they'll remove the tag in firmware or release another dozen special edition Soforts. I doubt the animal AF will actually get better. Sure it took me an hour to set the Sony up. But now I can forget about it. The experience sucks but it's balanced out with me not wondering if it'll do it's job today. And why does my SL3 take a different amount of time to start up each time? Shit like that is a red flag.

Leicas are an emotional purchase. No, the M doesn't have any special sauce and yes you can find lenses as good as the APO's. Or good enough you can't see the difference. Leicas don't make better images. It's the feel in hand and the shooting experience. And, for me, I'm slowly losing the joy of shooting Leicas because they don't get out of the way like they should. That shooting experience means nothing if it's no fun. If in the back of my mind I have to wonder if my M11 will freeze up today, or why I'm using beta firmware a year in on my SL3. Or whether like the CL they'll just cut the whole thing and leave us with no upgrade path.

When a company takes months to do a warranty repair or a firmware fix (a year for the M11. Or was it two years?) it's obvious the company has no regard for the customers. I'm happy the company is healthy. But it feels like they are only interested in the money. That's a taste I don't like having. When I picked up my Q3-43 it was HUNDREDS extra for the thumb grip. Just the though of how much of a money grab is has spoiled the camera for me. I got the exact same stuff with the exact same quality for less than half of that but that bitter after taste still lingers. I am seriously thinking it's time to get out of Leica altogether because there's no support, really. Once they have your cash you're on your own. And that's not enough, for me, anymore.

Bizarrely I'm off on a Leica Academei trip next mont and out of three choices (Hasselblad, Sony and Leica) the Leica is currently in 3rd place...... I'm actully tempted to take one Sony camera and one zooms lens. 

Gordon

[ALScott]

This is a silly post in my mind as you can't disprove a negative so why beat this dead horse once again.  You either like and want Leica or you don't.  if you don't just move on for the love that is all good and kind.  Every, EVERY product by any manufacturer has its shortcomings and disappointments.  If you don't mind cameras that look like someone has thrown up buttons and controls all over the top and back wrapped in gobs of cheap plastic then buy anything besides a Leica, be happy and move along.  My Q3, M11P, SL3 and SL3S have given me nothing but what Leica promised, beautiful low touch images that I am very happy with.  I am happy to be a fanboy as a Leica Q3 rekindled a love for photography which I had lost for many years.  Part of it was doing it for a living and later was due to the laborious task of editing.  When I ran the first pics from the Q3 through LRc and they needed little to no editing I was sold.  I bought in 100%.  No camera I ever had before did that, not even close.  The freedom and range of that sensor was a game changer too.  I had always been a Canon guy, knew Nikon well and really planned to go Sony when I got the Q3 but just comparing the UI of those plus size of options I went Leica Q3.  Again, the layout of all but Leica gave me hives just looking at them.  I hated all that poor UI crap but put up with it for years because I had to.  This time I could make a choice and I did.  I am glad I made the choice I did.  If you aren't move along.  This is a Leica forum right, not a why Panasonic, Sony, Nikon, and Canon is better than Leica forum.  Go read Bimmerpost.com if you want to see a truly helpful forum that doesn't seem to be so focused on sh*tting on the products it is supposed to be supporting.  I am all for discussing and helping each other with issues with our products but not poo-pooing on the entire brand as a whole, I don't get it.  I LOVE LEICA!

Edited February 18 by ALScott

[costa43]

17 hours ago, jaapv said:

No it is not the end of the M series but in my opinion they should return to the essence of the M series which is the best manual oriented camera with a rangefinder and stop trying to squeeze a Sony into an M3. 

Yes please. You tell ‘em Jaapv! 

[IkarusJohn]

3 hours ago, ALScott said:

This is a silly post in my mind as you can't disprove a negative so why beat this dead horse once again.  You either like and want Leica or you don't.  if you don't just move on for the love that is all good and kind.  Every, EVERY product by any manufacturer has its shortcomings and disappointments.  If you don't mind cameras that look like someone has thrown up buttons and controls all over the top and back wrapped in gobs of cheap plastic then buy anything besides a Leica, be happy and move along.  My Q3, M11P, SL3 and SL3S have given me nothing but what Leica promised, beautiful low touch images that I am very happy with.  I am happy to be a fanboy as a Leica Q3 rekindled a love for photography which I had lost for many years.  Part of it was doing it for a living and later was due to the laborious task of editing.  When I ran the first pics from the Q3 through LRc and they needed little to no editing I was sold.  I bought in 100%.  No camera I ever had before did that, not even close.  The freedom and range of that sensor was a game changer too.  I had always been a Canon guy, knew Nikon well and really planned to go Sony when I got the Q3 but just comparing the UI of those plus size of options I went Leica Q3.  Again, the layout of all but Leica gave me hives just looking at them.  I hated all that poor UI crap but put up with it for years because I had to.  This time I could make a choice and I did.  I am glad I made the choice I did.  If you aren't move along.  This is a Leica forum right, not a why Panasonic, Sony, Nikon, and Canon is better than Leica forum.  Go read Bimmerpost.com if you want to see a truly helpful forum that doesn't seem to be so focused on sh*tting on the products it is supposed to be supporting.  I am all for discussing and helping each other with issues with our products but not poo-pooing on the entire brand as a whole, I don't get it.  I LOVE LEICA!

Umm, I think almost every member of this forum would agree with you.  At some stage.  That’s why they’re here.  Post back when you have a failure of a lens or camera, and it has to go back to Wetzlar.  Or better still, when you buy the M12 as an early adopter …

 

[Viv]

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3 hours ago, ALScott said:

This is a silly post in my mind as you can't disprove a negative so why beat this dead horse once again.  You either like and want Leica or you don't.  if you don't just move on for the love that is all good and kind.  Every, EVERY product by any manufacturer has its shortcomings and disappointments.  If you don't mind cameras that look like someone has thrown up buttons and controls all over the top and back wrapped in gobs of cheap plastic then buy anything besides a Leica, be happy and move along.  My Q3, M11P, SL3 and SL3S have given me nothing but what Leica promised, beautiful low touch images that I am very happy with.  I am happy to be a fanboy as a Leica Q3 rekindled a love for photography which I had lost for many years.  Part of it was doing it for a living and later was due to the laborious task of editing.  When I ran the first pics from the Q3 through LRc and they needed little to no editing I was sold.  I bought in 100%.  No camera I ever had before did that, not even close.  The freedom and range of that sensor was a game changer too.  I had always been a Canon guy, knew Nikon well and really planned to go Sony when I got the Q3 but just comparing the UI of those plus size of options I went Leica Q3.  Again, the layout of all but Leica gave me hives just looking at them.  I hated all that poor UI crap but put up with it for years because I had to.  This time I could make a choice and I did.  I am glad I made the choice I did.  If you aren't move along.  This is a Leica forum right, not a why Panasonic, Sony, Nikon, and Canon is better than Leica forum.  Go read Bimmerpost.com if you want to see a truly helpful forum that doesn't seem to be so focused on sh*tting on the products it is supposed to be supporting.  I am all for discussing and helping each other with issues with our products but not poo-pooing on the entire brand as a whole, I don't get it.  I LOVE LEICA!

I agree with every word.

[Viv]

18 hours ago, jaapv said:

No it is not the end of the M series but in my opinion they should return to the essence of the M series which is the best manual oriented camera with a rangefinder and stop trying to squeeze a Sony into an M3. 

I have sometimes advocated a M camera with no screen and no exposure meter. Not entirely tongue in cheek.

[PeterBoyadjian]

I sold off all my Leica gear and went with the A7r5 and 28-70f2. 

Sony worked some magic with that lens. But, I am a working photographer. I needed a camera that just works. 

I was having issues with the SL3's TTL and metering system. AF for video was disappointing too. 

Still love the APO lenses, that 28 and 75 render better than anything. 

Bought and sold the Q43, might buy another for personal work. 

Honestly Leicas are best for personal stuff, for work....just use what gets you in and out. 

 

[Al Brown]

On 2/15/2025 at 4:04 PM, Eoin said:

Not trying to be argumentative, but the "I don't have that problem posts" are relevant

Technically, they look like this:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Al Brown]

On 2/18/2025 at 6:35 AM, ALScott said:

Every, EVERY product by any manufacturer has its shortcomings and disappointments.

Hasselblad X2D has none of both, just sayin’

[Al Brown]

On 2/18/2025 at 6:35 AM, ALScott said:

I am all for discussing and helping each other with issues with our products but not poo-pooing on the entire brand as a whole, I don't get it.

This place’s name and type is a “FORUM” (its title says so), so just like in Roman times more than 2000 years ago, EVERY opinion is welcome and encouraged. The thing you are referring to is a support/fan group.

Edited February 20 by Al Brown

[JNK100]

No 

[JohnathanLovm]

May I know what makes SL3-S disappointed? Last time I compared with S5IIX and A9 I found SL3-S have some advantages over them.

Edited February 21 by JohnathanLovm

[ALScott]

On 2/18/2025 at 2:54 AM, IkarusJohn said:

Umm, I think almost every member of this forum would agree with you.  At some stage.  That’s why they’re here.  Post back when you have a failure of a lens or camera, and it has to go back to Wetzlar.  Or better still, when you buy the M12 as an early adopter …

 

I have zero issue with anybody posting about an actual problem or actual experience that has gone poorly.  I would totally support anyone in a legitimate issue.  Even though it is a "forum," as I have been told, it's the seemingly never ending expression of one disapproval or another of Leica for what they have "done" or "didn't do" by Leica owners and a ton of non-owners, even testers in a shop.  It's just odd to me.  I have found those here who seem to be reasonable and fair in my view and most of the time I only pay attention to them.  However, at times like the release of anything new, I allow myself to get sucked into the negativity.  I think I am an early adopter already.... Last March I bought a Q3 and loved it so much (sorry, feel like I have to apologize for liking it) I then bought an SL3 then an M11P and and on day one got an SL3-S.  Again, I have to apologize because, touch wood, I have had zero issues with any of them.  Any issue I did have was due to me, not Leica. (sorry again).  Funny thing is, I wanted to get back into shooting and documenting my life and family and all I really looked at was the Fuji x100vi but couldn't get it  and then only Sony until I literally stumbled across the Q3.  I went with it purely for its size and abilities and I am very glad I did.  I have never edited files less than I have with the files from all of the Leica cameras, not even close.  Also, I was a photo journalist with Canon and Nikon and had failures with both and I can't say that either blew me away with getting me back to where I was.  In fact, when I did have failures whatever it was became a paper weight and I bought new. Back then I sure as h*ll couldn't afford that but I had no choice.  If you live in a big city with all of those resources in the same city it may be great, but I never have, never.  So, I had to do whatever I could in order to keep working.  Canon or Nikon weren't a few blocks away and three to four weeks to get me something was as good as nothing.

[IkarusJohn]

3 hours ago, ALScott said:

I have zero issue with anybody posting about an actual problem or actual experience that has gone poorly.  I would totally support anyone in a legitimate issue.  Even though it is a "forum," as I have been told, it's the seemingly never ending expression of one disapproval or another of Leica for what they have "done" or "didn't do" by Leica owners and a ton of non-owners, even testers in a shop.  It's just odd to me.  I have found those here who seem to be reasonable and fair in my view and most of the time I only pay attention to them.  However, at times like the release of anything new, I allow myself to get sucked into the negativity.  I think I am an early adopter already.... Last March I bought a Q3 and loved it so much (sorry, feel like I have to apologize for liking it) I then bought an SL3 then an M11P and and on day one got an SL3-S.  Again, I have to apologize because, touch wood, I have had zero issues with any of them.  Any issue I did have was due to me, not Leica. (sorry again).  Funny thing is, I wanted to get back into shooting and documenting my life and family and all I really looked at was the Fuji x100vi but couldn't get it  and then only Sony until I literally stumbled across the Q3.  I went with it purely for its size and abilities and I am very glad I did.  I have never edited files less than I have with the files from all of the Leica cameras, not even close.  Also, I was a photo journalist with Canon and Nikon and had failures with both and I can't say that either blew me away with getting me back to where I was.  In fact, when I did have failures whatever it was became a paper weight and I bought new. Back then I sure as h*ll couldn't afford that but I had no choice.  If you live in a big city with all of those resources in the same city it may be great, but I never have, never.  So, I had to do whatever I could in order to keep working.  Canon or Nikon weren't a few blocks away and three to four weeks to get me something was as good as nothing.

You don’t have to apologise for anything.

Let me put this another way.  People buy a Leica product (I don’t really care what it is) for any number of reasons.  If every Leica product was a dud, most would toss it in a bin and move on (get a refund, whatever - why persist with a bad product).  But, the thing is, Leica isn’t a bad product.

I have owned a host of Leica cameras and lenses over more than a decade.  The majority here, longer than that.  More than half the digital cameras I have bought have failed.  I didn’t buy the M11, and I’m pleased I didn’t.  That’s not a good track record.  So, why do I still use my SL(601), TL2, M-A, Monochrom, M10-D, and a host of lenses?  Then, why do people bother posting about the problems they have?  If their Leicas were duds, why stick around and complaint?

Then you pop along, telling everyone with complaints to move on.  Really?  Perhaps the people are complaining, in the main, because they have a long track record with Leica.  They have experienced the good and the bad, and they’re still here.  Good, you love Leica.  So do the people disappointed, financially impacted, and wishing Leica could do better.

We pay for it.  Show some respect.

[Chris W]

On 2/20/2025 at 10:09 AM, Al Brown said:

Hasselblad X2D has none of both, just sayin’

The X1D2 has quirks. The autofocus hunts quite often. The 45p lens has a long standing issue that when you mount it the body says 'no lens detected'. You have to unmount and mount it a few times to get it to work.

It's a known issue that has never been resolved.

[Chris W]

On 2/20/2025 at 6:00 AM, PeterBoyadjian said:

 

Honestly Leicas are best for personal stuff, for work....just use what gets you in and out. 

 

Sure. As a musician I have boring professional tools that never fail to get the job done. I also own tools that I enjoy more to use.

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[Chris W]

On 2/17/2025 at 10:46 PM, FlashGordonPhotography said:

 

Leicas are an emotional purchase. No, the M doesn't have any special sauce and yes you can find lenses as good as the APO's.

I disagree. I have bought and sold multiple brands of camera over the last 20 years and keep coming back to Leica. For two reasons. The simple and clean industrial design, including the simple, easy to use menu system. Second reason - the rangefinder focussing system. None of it is 'emotional'. It is the way I prefer to work.

I have bought all of my leica cameras at least a couple of years after they were first launched.

I have had an SL. Thought it was too big and bulky to carry around. 

I've had a Q. Absolutely loved it. Brilliant image quality. I just didn't like shooting 28mm all the time.

I've had an M8 (crop? No thanks), an M240 and now an M10.

Most of the people complaining about Leica QC seem to have purchased an SL3 or M11 soon after their introduction.

In the least I would be reading the SL and M forums here before I purchased one. Many times people are reporting issues.

 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

9 hours ago, Chris W said:

I disagree. I have bought and sold multiple brands of camera over the last 20 years and keep coming back to Leica. For two reasons. The simple and clean industrial design, including the simple, easy to use menu system. Second reason - the rangefinder focussing system. None of it is 'emotional'. It is the way I prefer to work.

I have bought all of my leica cameras at least a couple of years after they were first launched.

I have had an SL. Thought it was too big and bulky to carry around. 

I've had a Q. Absolutely loved it. Brilliant image quality. I just didn't like shooting 28mm all the time.

I've had an M8 (crop? No thanks), an M240 and now an M10.

Most of the people complaining about Leica QC seem to have purchased an SL3 or M11 soon after their introduction.

In the least I would be reading the SL and M forums here before I purchased one. Many times people are reporting issues.

 

Actually my M11 and SL3's are the most reliable Leicas I've had. Apart from the software thing, which had a workaround and I didn't fall foul of anyway. Really the SL platform has been fine after a few initial software glitches and a single hardware issue.. M's not so much. I got my M11 on launch day and have had very few issues. Mostly card compatibility and a slowdown with certain review settings. First was a change of card. Second was a menu change. Both were easy and worked for me. Others, lots of others have not been so lucky.

But my experience:

M8: Had to buy filters for every lens. This was before Leica acknowledged the IR issue so I was out of luck, and pocket.

M9's (2 bodies) 5 sensor replacements. 2 cracked 3 delaminated. 1 failed shutter. Still needed IR filters with some lenses.

M 240. RF was out out of the box.

M-P No issues.

M10. RF was out, out of the box.

M10R. No issues. M10M No issues.

M11. OK but there's no doubt to the ussues many had with them. M11M. No issues.

SL(601) flash didn't fire in TTL mode between 1/50 and 1/200th. But was fine with manual third party triggers. How does this even get to release?? 

SL2 Sensor out of alighnment. Leica refused warranty. But equalised when I dropped my 16-35 and they did a free repair anyway.

35 lux M: Out of spec new.

90 Summarit. Out of spec. Returned 7 months later full of dust. #3 months later returned dust fre but out of spec again. 3 trips to Germany for that one.

28 Summicron. decentered. Swapped

I could go on. There are more, unfortunately. I wouldn't judge your Leica experience as normal. And sure, I've had other brands go down. And like you I wasn't near a city. But even with shipping it was around 4 weeks, max. I get that Leica is a boutique hand made brand. I actually prepared to put up with this stuff. I like the brand. I own more of it than most. But factually it's the least reliable brand I own.

It is possible to like a brand and acknowledge that reliability issues exist and tarnish one's affection for it somewhat. I'm still likely to take a pair of Q3's and a pair of SL3's on my next trip. And a Panasonic S1R2 if they arrive in time. Wish the SL3 had EFCS for the shutter shock issues.

As for the special sauce. I like M's as well. And I agree that there's an impact on how you shoot when you use different gear. But they don't make better images than any other brand. There's no magic pixi dust rendering in the lenses more than any other brand. Different? Sure. Better? Not so much. I also have strong preferences for cameras that get out of the way and I think often less is more. I just think, in the right mind, I can take decent images with any camera.

Gordon

Gordon