Are all M cameras and lenses finicky or do I have bad luck?

[_leicaguru]

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9 minutes ago, _tc said:

You are mistaking being corrected for aggression.

You claim your gear is flawless calibrated yet you've not applied any real scrutiny, so I am disagreeing with your language/framing. Because I think it's deeply flawed.

I'm not calling you an idiot.

How do you know I never applied any "real scrutiny"?.Not sure what you mean by real scrutiny. Have I taken my gear to a lab? My version of scrutiny and yours may be different. I scrutinized my photos over the years I've owned this gear a LOT. If anything because I paid a lot for it and I buy everything new at retail prices and I want to know it is working 100%. 

Edited February 1 by _leicaguru

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[charlesphoto99]

An out of calibration rangefinder is going to matter most depending on what lenses you shoot. These day, I've been shooting a project mostly with a 135 APO. I was doing so mostly with my M10-R (whose infinity was obviously off brand new out of the box; sent to Leica) and recently shifted to doing so with my M10M and was frustrated that I kept missing focus. Shooting some tests with other lenses I realized that the rf is front focusing, by about two to three inches. That wouldn't be noticeable shooting a 28mm at say f2.8 and above but was with the 135, even at smaller apertures, and a 50 Lux at f 2.8. I can certainly adjust in a pinch with muscle/eye memory but would rather have it focus right. Local repair (Red Dot Repairs) picking it up Tuesday; I would hesitate for such a small discrepancy to have to lose it to Leica for 2-3 months, and $$. 

TLDR: it really matters what focal length and apertures you are shooting at whether the rangefinder needs to be 'perfect.' And yes, one can get it pretty close (and I've even done it on my own with the M8 and M9). My M10-R seems to focus pretty spot on wide open across a dozen lenses (all Leica) from 18mm to 135. Of those, only the 50 'Lux pre-asph was corrected by DAG a dozen years ago, the 135mm APO a couple of years ago by DAG, and the 75 Summicron by Leica. All others seemed to work out of the gate (all bought used). Bodies, bought new, (M8, M9, M9M, M10, M10-R black paint, and M10M) in regards to the rf calibration, among other things, have all been a different story, mostly not good, though once corrected, most seem to stay that way. 

[Photoworks]

It is not always a lens issue

My M10-P could not focus on infinity with the summilux 35mm wide open, I sent in the lens to Leica, and they said it was fine, it turned out that the sensor needed calibration.

This day I shoot with m11, my favorite lens is the 0.95 and I shoot wide open, focusing is not an issue most of the time.

[adan]

While I don't doubt the OP's experience, I personally have had very few Leica M lenses with problems.

1) a series of early-production and used Solms-made 75 APO-Summicron-M-ASPHs, 2008-2012, where the (I suspect) floating-element system had gotten out of whack, or was never fully calibrated to begin with. 75 ASMAs since the building of the new factory back in Wetzlar have been more reliable.

2) a used-but-recent APO-Telyt 135mm that consistently back-focused by 10%. Sent to Leica and fixed - no problems since (in fact it is now my "reference lens" against which I test all other lenses for focus consistency).

3) And I have sold, returned or not bought a few used M lens examples that did not match the repaired 135's focusing.

However, the late, great rock 'n roll (and Leica M) photographer Jim Marshall was quoted as saying that once he found an M lens and body that worked well together - he never removed that lens from that camera again. Which may explain why he carried 5 cameras for his 5 lenses (21/28/35/50/90). 

https://www.wallofsoundgallery.com/en/jim-marshall-f34

But that was with 1960s-70s production tolerances

[anonymoose]

47 minutes ago, adan said:

While I don't doubt the OP's experience, I personally have had very few Leica M lenses with problems.

1) a series of early-production and used Solms-made 75 APO-Summicron-M-ASPHs, 2008-2012, where the (I suspect) floating-element system had gotten out of whack, or was never fully calibrated to begin with. 75 ASMAs since the building of the new factory back in Wetzlar have been more reliable.

2) a used-but-recent APO-Telyt 135mm that consistently back-focused by 10%. Sent to Leica and fixed - no problems since (in fact it is now my "reference lens" against which I test all other lenses for focus consistency).

3) And I have sold, returned or not bought a few used M lens examples that did not match the repaired 135's focusing.

However, the late, great rock 'n roll (and Leica M) photographer Jim Marshall was quoted as saying that once he found an M lens and body that worked well together - he never removed that lens from that camera again. Which may explain why he carried 5 cameras for his 5 lenses (21/28/35/50/90). 

https://www.wallofsoundgallery.com/en/jim-marshall-f34

But that was with 1960s-70s production tolerances

My Leica store told me they can send a body+lens combo back to Leica and have them "married" such that the combination has near perfect calibration. That's rather tempting aside from the 1-6 months I'd be without a camera.

[charlesphoto99]

32 minutes ago, anonymoose said:

My Leica store told me they can send a body+lens combo back to Leica and have them "married" such that the combination has near perfect calibration. That's rather tempting aside from the 1-6 months I'd be without a camera.

Hmmm... but what if your M is polyamorous? 😄

[JeffWright]

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On 2/1/2025 at 9:36 AM, anonymoose said:

The M10-R has been returned. Tested out some used M11 bodies (all in excellent condition) yesterday and found one that is properly calibrated (confirmed with two different lenses).

Fingers crossed it remains that way! Now to find a lens that doesn't have front-focusing or back-focusing issues 😅. I prefer the 35 Lux FLE 2022's aesthetics/package, but I'm wondering if I should go with the tried-and-true with the screw on lens hood (would also save about $2k!).

The prior version has focus shift when stopping down. Only an issue at relatively close focus, of course.

[ramarren]

On 1/30/2025 at 9:36 AM, anonymoose said:

Here's a brief summary of my excursion into the world of M:

• M11 #1: very lightly used (basically brand new), out of horizontal and vertical alignment
• M11 #2: also very lightly used, out of horizontal alignment
• Summilux-M 35mm f1.4 ASPH II #1: very lightly used, rather loose focus mechanism with ~10mm dead zone when changing directions + slightly click
• Summilux-M 35mm f1.4 ASPH II #2: brand new, 2-3" of front-focusing at ~3' distance
• M10-R + Summilux-M 35mm f1.4 ASPH I: M10-R (used, but great condition) and lens (rental, so crapshoot here) combination is back-focusing pretty badly, but don't know if its the lens or the camera.

All of the above were confirmed by my Leica store's technicians except the M10-R, which I'll need to take in this weekend. I really, really like the M experience and think the M10-R + 35 Lux is for me, but this amount of issues with the primary thing (the rangefinder experience) that draws me to this lineup is scary.

Do I have terrible luck?

I think you have terrible luck. Then again, aside from one item in your list, everything you're reporting to have a problem is used ... And I've found, over the course of the past 50 years of buying and selling gear, that anything used has an 80:20 chance of needing some kind of service when I get it. It is so common that I now look at used gear for sale and automatically add at least $200 (and six to ten weeks time) to whatever price is being asked to accommodate a trip to the shop for a CLA and basic repairs.

Most recent on this front: my Leica M10-R was a "Leica refurbished" unit, obvious from the condition that it had never actually been used except to show at some camera event. And supposedly serviced at Leica before being offered for sale by my dealer. The rangefinder collimation (vertical alignment) and calibration (distance adjustment) were both off when I received it. It was returned to Leica USA for service by my dealer, no cost to me and including shipping, and returned perfect in five weeks. It remains perfect now 2 years (and 12,000 exposures) later. 

With respect to new Leica gear purchased since 2010, that includes my M9, M-P 240, M-D 262, SL, CL, M10-M, Summicron-M 50, Summarit-M 75, and a rash of Voigtländer lenses: all of them were in perfect shape as I bought them and required no adjustments or repairs. 

Bottom line: The odds are better with new equipment, but all machinery can and does require service and repair occasionally. 

G

Edited February 4 by ramarren

[anonymoose]

1 hour ago, ramarren said:

I think you have terrible luck. Then again, aside from one item in your list, everything you're reporting to have a problem is used ... And I've found, over the course of the past 50 years of buying and selling gear, that anything used has an 80:20 chance of needing some kind of service when I get it. It is so common that I now look at used gear for sale and automatically add at least $200 (and six to ten weeks time) to whatever price is being asked to accommodate a trip to the shop for a CLA and basic repairs.

Most recent on this front: my Leica M10-R was a "Leica refurbished" unit, obvious from the condition that it had never actually been used except to show at some camera event. And supposedly serviced at Leica before being offered for sale by my dealer. The rangefinder collimation (vertical alignment) and calibration (distance adjustment) were both off when I received it. It was returned to Leica USA for service by my dealer, no cost to me and including shipping, and returned perfect in five weeks. It remains perfect now 2 years (and 12,000 exposures) later. 

With respect to new Leica gear purchased since 2010, that includes my M9, M-P 240, M-D 262, SL, CL, M10-M, Summicron-M 50, Summarit-M 75, and a rash of Voigtländer lenses: all of them were in perfect shape as I bought them and required no adjustments or repairs. 

Bottom line: The odds are better with new equipment, but all machinery can and does require service and repair occasionally. 

G

I had chalked it up to the items being used (even if they were in mint condition) until I opened a brand new 35 Summilux-M, found it severely front-focusing, and had to return it

[anonymoose]

Also, please add this to my "unlucky" list:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/309057-apo-summicron-75mm-focusing-problem/?do=findComment&comment=5751878

[_leicaguru]

30 minutes ago, anonymoose said:

I had chalked it up to the items being used (even if they were in mint condition) until I opened a brand new 35 Summilux-M, found it severely front-focusing, and had to return it

I would chalk to up to lenses being made for analog film rangefinders rather than digital rangefinders.

[ramarren]

1 hour ago, _leicaguru said:

I would chalk to up to lenses being made for analog film rangefinders rather than digital rangefinders.

I find that difficult to accept. The lenses I use on my Leica cameras range from a 1960 Hektor 135mm f/4.5 to the new Summicron 50 and Summarit 75 (new about a decade ago now. Their focusing calibration on my M10-R, M10-M, M4-2, and M6TTL is absolutely spot on, and they've not been adjusted or otherwise tailored for any camera. Far as I know, only two of my lenses have been to any service (the Summilux 35 from 1972  to have the six bit code installed, and the M-Rokkor 90 to have the focusing helicoid cleaned and lubricated as it had gotten stiff and gratchy in operation. 

A properly adjusted rangefinder in any Leica body and the focusing cam on a lens should work perfectly regardless what body you put them on. 

G

[charlesphoto99]

3 hours ago, ramarren said:

I think you have terrible luck. Then again, aside from one item in your list, everything you're reporting to have a problem is used ... And I've found, over the course of the past 50 years of buying and selling gear, that anything used has an 80:20 chance of needing some kind of service when I get it. It is so common that I now look at used gear for sale and automatically add at least $200 (and six to ten weeks time) to whatever price is being asked to accommodate a trip to the shop for a CLA and basic repairs.

Most recent on this front: my Leica M10-R was a "Leica refurbished" unit, obvious from the condition that it had never actually been used except to show at some camera event. And supposedly serviced at Leica before being offered for sale by my dealer. The rangefinder collimation (vertical alignment) and calibration (distance adjustment) were both off when I received it. It was returned to Leica USA for service by my dealer, no cost to me and including shipping, and returned perfect in five weeks. It remains perfect now 2 years (and 12,000 exposures) later. 

With respect to new Leica gear purchased since 2010, that includes my M9, M-P 240, M-D 262, SL, CL, M10-M, Summicron-M 50, Summarit-M 75, and a rash of Voigtländer lenses: all of them were in perfect shape as I bought them and required no adjustments or repairs. 

Bottom line: The odds are better with new equipment, but all machinery can and does require service and repair occasionally. 

G

Nope. Brand new M10-R black paint infinity way off straight out of the box. Lots of QC issues reported on this forum and elsewhere, new out of the box. I've had both zero issues and issues that would pop up later with used. Sure, most will be fine, but you can't generalize about new vs used. 

[charlesphoto99]

2 hours ago, anonymoose said:

Also, please add this to my "unlucky" list:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/309057-apo-summicron-75mm-focusing-problem/?do=findComment&comment=5751878

Known issue with this lens. I finally had to send the mint used one I got back to Leica. Fine since. 

[anonymoose]

9 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Known issue with this lens. I finally had to send the mint used one I got back to Leica. Fine since. 

Well that's a bummer, but glad to know I'm not the unluckiest Leica customer on the planet 😅

[anonymoose]

2 hours ago, _leicaguru said:

I would chalk to up to lenses being made for analog film rangefinders rather than digital rangefinders.

The 2022 close focusing model (that relies on Live View) is made for analog film rangefinders?

[Tseg]

Sounds like bad luck.  No issues with my Leica purchases.

[ramarren]

2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Nope. Brand new M10-R black paint infinity way off straight out of the box. Lots of QC issues reported on this forum and elsewhere, new out of the box. I've had both zero issues and issues that would pop up later with used. Sure, most will be fine, but you can't generalize about new vs used. 

Nope. Not my experience. Sorry. 

I can generalize about new vs used, and state an opinion about out of box quality, based on my own experience, and certainly NOT from the experience of a who-knows-how-many-other-unknown-people whom I've never met and know nothing about. I don't generally quote "what everyone says on the internet" as truth or reflect upon it. I state, and offer opinions about, ONLY what I have learned from my own experience.

If everyone on the forum speaks opinions based solely upon their own experience, we get a much better notion of what the truth is in the context of a community of people we come to know, and not a notion of truth based on second-, third-, and fourth-hand rumors and hearsay. 

Sorry to hear you had a new camera come through with rangefinder calibration off the mark. It's a PITA, I know, from much personal experience. 

G

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[_leicaguru]

6 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Nope. Brand new M10-R black paint infinity way off straight out of the box. Lots of QC issues reported on this forum and elsewhere, new out of the box. I've had both zero issues and issues that would pop up later with used. Sure, most will be fine, but you can't generalize about new vs used. 

A lot of people here buy used. My brand new BP M10R was perfect. Has been for 3 years. 

Edited February 5 by _leicaguru

[charlesphoto99]

8 hours ago, _leicaguru said:

A lot of people here buy used. My brand new BP M10R was perfect. Has been for 3 years. 

I guess I got the luck of the draw then. Mine also had to go back another time because the back buttons would freeze up (camera still shot fine otherwise) above a certain ambient temperature. Thankfully it was ONLY a two month turnaround time. Been solid since.