Summicron 50/2 and Elmar 90/4 "Leica Order No"

[pegelli]

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A question on lens order numbers (couldn't find the info in WiKi or one of the threads here, sorry if this has been covered before).

First, a Summicron 50/2 (M-mount, v1, rigid, chrome): This one. In the Wiki it gives two possibilities, it's either a SOOIC-M 11118 or a SOSIC 11818. It's from 1957 with serial # 1468XXX
Is there a way to determine what the right type number/name for my lens is?

Second an Elmar 90/4 (LTM, rigid): This one: (without the spec). They all seem to be ILNOO, but can have number 11830, 11131 or 11130. It's from 1956 with serial # 1410XXX
Same question, is there a way to determine the type number of my lens?

Thanks in advance for all the help you can give for this.

[jc_braconi]

Hi
Some pictures will help certainly

[UliWer]

Your question gets us into very confusing details. 

The collapsible 50mm Summicron was originally named "SOOIC" - during the time before the introduction of the M when they came only in screw-mount.  When the M was introduced they made a difference between screwmount - just "SOOIC" and M-mount "SOOIC-M".

Enter the rigid Summicron in 1956. It was called "SOSIC" with M-mount and "SOSTA" with screw-mount.  Though shortly after the introduction of the rigid version the collapsible was abandoned. While the German catalogues  still list the rigid Summicron as "SOSIC" up to February 1960, I have a Dutch pricelist from June 1958 which has the rigid Summicron as "SOOIC". I don't know whether this is just a misprint, or whether they used different five-letter words internationally and in Germany. 

Anyway the five letters were abandoned in 1961. Now the rigid Summicron got the number 11818 (In the beginning with an "R" attached at the number's end). Though there was also a screw-mount varaiant, which was "11518L". The dual-scale version with goggles was originally "SOMNI" and then "11918M".  

Though these are only the numbers I find in German catalogues. When I look into Laney's "Leica Collector's Guide" I read that they also made differences between variants in feet and meters: SOSTA/11018 - screw-mount feet. SOSTA/11518- screw-mount meters; SOSIC/11818 - M-mount feet; SOSIC/11618 M-mount meters. SOMNI/11918 - dual range. And then there was also a black version which was 11117.

Now the 90mm Elmar:

The original rigid one with screw-mount was "ELANG" ("Elmar long") and 11730L,  in M-Mount it was "ELGAM" and 11830R.  Though when the original version with 4 lenses was abandoned, they kept both numbers (without the letter attached in the end) for the version with three lenses. The collapsible version which came only in M-Mount and four lenses was ILNOO/11631 (according Laney in meters and 11131 with the scale in feet and meters.)

With the lenses dates you give from 1957 and 1956 there were no 5-digit numbers, but only the traditional five-letter-words. I'd call your items "SOSIC" and "ELGAM".

 

 

Edited January 27 by UliWer

[pegelli]

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[pegelli]

Thanks @UliWer, it's indeed confusing and not all information seems consistent, especially on the Summicron.

If I conclude correctly it's a SOSIC according to the German Catalogue and after 1961 became a 11818, and a SOOIC according to your Dutch pricelist.
Then looking at Laney's it's a SOSIC/11618 (meter scale/M-mount).
Maybe it's best to declare it a SOSIC/11818, or would be calling it 11618 better? Since I'm Dutch I have no problem declaring SOOIC a misprint 🙈

Regarding the ELMAR 90/4 LTM it's worse, The Wiki I linked calls it ILNOO 11830, 11131 or11130, no mention of ELANG and LTM is 11730, which isn't in the Wiki 🤔
Do you have any idea where this ILNOO reference comes from? I've seen the Wiki isn't always accurate, so I think for the time being I will designate my 90/4 LT as ELANG 11730.

Anyway, thanks for the help, if it's so confusing between different references it's probably not terribly important anyway 😇

[UliWer]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb pegelli:

Do you have any idea where this ILNOO reference comes from?

The ILNOO/11631 was the collapsible 1:4/9cm Elmar which never was made in LTM.

I didn‘t realize that your example was an LTM, so of course it‘s ELANG - one of the first five-letter names. After LEICA and ELMAR there came ELANG for the 9cm, EFEERN for the 13.5cm and EKURZ for the 3.5cm Elmars.