Something truly scary happened to my M11 with latest firmware

[DadDadDaddyo]

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If I had any camera, even a Leica, with which shots were not showing up on the SD card, my first and prime suspect would be the SD card itself.

[Tseg]

I use Apple Mac Photos/Photomator/Pixelmator Pro.  In Photos I use the Download/Delete option... so rarely/never reformat.   Knock on wood, no problems after deleting many thousands of photos and reading the SD card many hundreds of times. I use the same process for both my Q and M camera.

[davidmknoble]

The bigger issue is that deleting images can cause fragmenting of the SD Card.  Every DNG is a different size.  So, imagine having the following files in order, with no space between them:

1. 45 mb
2. 56 mb
3. 35 mb

Then delete the second image.  Now you have a spot that is 56mb wide in between two images. If you take an image that is larger than the 56mb space, it may write it in two different locations on the SD card.

Over simplification, but the concept is important.  Formatting your SD card using quick format (can rescue images) or full format (erase the files with 000’s) will still start over when writing new files.

[elmars]

vor einer Stunde schrieb davidmknoble:

The bigger issue is that deleting images can cause fragmenting of the SD Card.  Every DNG is a different size.  So, imagine having the following files in order, with no space between them:

1. 45 mb
2. 56 mb
3. 35 mb

Then delete the second image.  Now you have a spot that is 56mb wide in between two images. If you take an image that is larger than the 56mb space, it may write it in two different locations on the SD card.

Over simplification, but the concept is important.  Formatting your SD card using quick format (can rescue images) or full format (erase the files with 000’s) will still start over when writing new files.

May I quote from my review of the Leica M11-D:

"There is no option to format the internal memory or the SD card. Instead, you have to delete the photos using the app. It may not be technically so easy to implement formatting using the app. I don't miss it myself, but there are probably many users who have made a habit of frequently reformatting the SD card in the camera because deleting it can supposedly disrupt the SD card's file system. But this is a misconception. In the Leica Enthusiast Podcast, an engineer from Western Digital (the manufacturer of the SanDisk cards) explained that deleting files in the camera has no negative effects and does not lead to image loss. So all you have to do with the M11-D is change your routine and delete photos instead of formatting the card."

 

 

[m410]

1 hour ago, davidmknoble said:

The bigger issue is that deleting images can cause fragmenting of the SD Card.  Every DNG is a different size.  So, imagine having the following files in order, with no space between them:

I have found the same camera behavior.

My experience has been to never delete or edit a few images in my camera once they have been written to a card as this seems to freeze or interrupt any future images.  This seems to "confuse" the cameras attempt to use or find a space for future images in the slot left by any previous image. IF I plan to continue using the card in the future I delete all files and reformat the disk.  Also, I usually reset the camera.  I have a M10R.

Edited January 18 by m410

[emlokto]

8 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

Then delete the second image.  Now you have a spot that is 56mb wide in between two images. If you take an image that is larger than the 56mb space, it may write it in two different locations on the SD card.

Over simplification, but the concept is important.  Formatting your SD card using quick format (can rescue images) or full format (erase the files with 000’s) will still start over when writing new files.

Clarification; when it comes to file fragmentation, quick format is just as affective as deleting all files individually as is long format. 

Fragmentation shouldn't be a thing on SD drives unless one really goes out of their way keeping the drive 80% full and is constantly deleting files here and there. For general SD card usage, you figure it's just write-write-write, delete all, write-write-write. We don't even defrag sold state drives because files are just pointers, and it's nearly a non-issue unless you have a spinning drive and magnetic heads that need to seek all over the place. 

[emlokto]

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I do think the files should be easily recoverable with the right tool. 

With the FAT file system, you can definitely lose files when pulling a battery. It's a fluke, but sounds like Leica had the two files open, could have been updating the file allocation table, the batter was pulled, and the files are 'lost' because the allocation table wasn't updated properly. 

In all other scenarios, you'd have different error messages, including the scenario if the card was corrupt (the files would be visible, just non-usable). Tiniest chance that the part of the SD card that had the file allocation table has an error. 

There are definitely better file systems for photography. FAT isn't one of them, but seems to be the default. 

[davidmknoble]

This is from: https://www.sdcard.org/developers/sd-standard-overview/speed-class/#:~:text=Fragmentation and Speed,improve memory usage ratio considerably.

They are likely experts in this field, and they develop the SD Formatter app.

Fragmentation and Speed

By repeating deletion and write of files, data area is gradually fragmented and it influences write speed.　Generally, write speed to a fragmented area is slower than sequential write speed due to flash memory characteristics. In an era when memory capacity is not large enough, fragmented write needed to be considered. However, high capacity memory card is available at this time, Speed Class write is defined to perform sequential writes to a completely un-fragmented area (called “Free AU”). It makes Speed Class controls of host easy. On the other hand, even unused memory exists in total, there is a possibility that host cannot perform Speed Class recording. In that case, data arrangement to reduce fragmented area or move data to anther storage to re-format the card will be required. Video Speed Class supports “Suspend/Resume” function that can stop and retrieve sequential write. By using the function, it is possible to improve memory usage ratio considerably.

[davidmknoble]

This is from: https://www.securedatarecovery.com/blog/sandisk-errors-what-they-mean-how-to-fix#:~:text=Periodic Formatting.,of the card's capacity unused.

The key is that deleting in camera and reusing will eventually slow the write speed such that the camera may not be able to flush the buffer and can potentially fail to write the full image file, causing problems with that image.

• Periodic Formatting. Formatting your SD card regularly can significantly reduce data fragmentation, thereby maintaining optimal performance. Before formatting, ensure all data is backed up, as this process erases all existing data on the card.
• Avoid Overloading. Keep free space on your SD card; don't fill it to its maximum capacity. This approach helps reduce wear on the memory cells, extending the card's lifespan. A good rule of thumb is to leave at least 10-15% of the card's capacity unused.

[davidmknoble]

18 hours ago, elmars said:

There is no option to format the internal memory or the SD card. Instead, you have to delete the photos using the app. It may not be technically so easy to implement formatting using the app

See my posts above.  I have had the M-D and the M10D.  I frequently reformat in my computer after ingesting the photos.  That workflow didn’t change with the MD versions and while I understand it is not easy in the M11-D, it is still not best practice to delete images in camera.

[m410]

To the OP.  

There seems to be some excellent and very useful information concerning good practices and/or protocols relating to SD Cards and our Digital Leicas.  

I learned a lot about some of the technical software requirements that might keep the camera freezing kremlins away.

You had a specific experience and problem, I am wondering if any expressed information in this thread helped your situation.

Hope so.  Please let us know.

D

[elmars]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb davidmknoble:

it is still not best practice to delete images in camera.

Maybe it is not best practice, but it's also not something you need to warn those who do it occasionally. I've been deleting images in the camera since the M9 and have never had any problems. I do format from time to time though.

[Derbyshire Man]

Just for posterity it’s worth noting here that it is now possible to format the SD in the M11D using the format function in Fotos, which will format both SD and internal memory quickly and easily. 

[Tseg]

On 1/14/2025 at 8:09 PM, Tseg said:

I use Apple Mac Photos/Photomator/Pixelmator Pro.  In Photos I use the Download/Delete option... so rarely/never reformat.   Knock on wood, no problems after deleting many thousands of photos and reading the SD card many hundreds of times. I use the same process for both my Q and M camera.

To clarify my post about deleting… The Photos app downloads ALL photos from the SD card then deletes ALL the photos at the same time from that SD card.  I don’t believe this creates a fragmentation issue.

Edited January 19 by Tseg