Converting M lenses to cine with 0.8 gears?

[robb]

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Has anyone converted an M lenses to its cine equivalent with the 0.8 gears?  Optics and 98% of the parts are the same.  These have been selected for Hollywood feature films with use on cine cameras.  I know they have recently been discontinued for the new larger Hugo lens bodies although optics also remain the same on these as well.

Wondering if the Leica factory or even independent shop will do the conversion and at what cost?

Adorama have been selling some of them as demo or new final avail… thanks for any thoughts.

Robb

 

 

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[Lee S]

You can buy rubber/3D printed gears that fit/clamp lenses. Gotta be cheaper than rehousing.

[robb]

Seems like only three main dif:

Standard filter ring to match all lenses

aperture with built in gear and markings

focus ring with built in gear and markings 

rest of housing/ internals/ glass / mount is same as M

I’m sure that adding the plastic gears over the normal M lens is doable and likely cheap… wondering about the full swap.

Robb

Edited December 9, 2024 by robb

[hansvons]

2 hours ago, robb said:

I’m sure that adding the plastic gears over the normal M lens is doable and likely cheap… wondering about the full swap.

 

Hi Rob,

As I know that you take thinks serously, I thought sharing my experience in this particular field might make sense.

If you were looking for cine-modded Leica lenses without busting the bank, I'd cine-mod my Leica still lenses with this gear.

I added their matte box adapters to a Leica R prime set. They do what you want them to. However, due to many little things, most notably the imperfect collimation conditions of the whole setup (lens adapter, lens' helicoid toleracnes, imperfect focus markings, etc.), they will never become proper cine lenses.

M lenses are not more suited than Leica R lenses for cine applications–on the contrary. Leica R primes are as good as their M counterparts in terms of IQ and character, but they handle better on a cine camera than the Ms due to their larger size and longer focus throw. Plus, they typically focus closer than the 70cm distance of M glass. If you are builidng a set of Leica primes for cine use it's important to include at least 1.5-2k for proper CLA. A well-done CLA with a thicker grease for proper focusing resistance makes all the difference. Also, have the lenses collimated correctly to infinity and (relatively) correct focus distance wittness marks is crucial. I always buy my lenses in good cosmetic condition (glass!). They never came spot on regardless of how well they looked and were babied by their previous owner. They were always off, at least a tad. The good news is that beside the excellent glass, the housing's quality of the Leica R lenses is way above average and close to cine primes of the same vintage, which makes them so attractive.

Particular well suited in terms of character, size, and IQ are:

• 28mm Elmarit R's last version and latest production years. The early 28mm Elmarits tend to render slightliy mushy compared to the later batches, which are sharp enough for proper longshots already at f/2.8. They are less prone to flaring compared to it's longer siblings and show a nice dimensionality without being too much in your face despite it's wide field of view. Particularly nice wide angle!

 

• The 35mm Summicron R latest version V2. The V1 has a different design and is not as sharp. However, the V2 still shows tons of character despite its retro-focal design and shows nices flares when provoked but is already sharp enough for typical shots at full aperture that inlcude environmental aspects in the storytelling. It's distinct curvature at f/2 but still relatively high corner sharpness makes it a rare gem for filmmakers. It's not a sleeper anymore, so getting one in pristine condition doesn't come cheap, but you won't lose money either. The typical shot size of 35mm focal lenght on FF are mostly medium long shots, medium close-ups, etc. Thus, it covers about 75% of all shots in a typical film prodcution. Essential lens. 

 

• The 35mm Summilux R is a rare beast, hard to find in excellent condition and is priced into Noctilux territory. The f/1.4 extra stop won't help the storytelling much. Not a necessity. 

 

• The 50mm focal length is mostly reserved for medium close-ups and regular close-ups. I'd say it's used 10-20 per cent of the time in classic filmmaking. I have the 50mm Summilux R V2 that still comes without the built-in hood but already benefits from advanced coatings. Even at f/1.4 you'll be getting relatively sharp images at the centre without too much of the glow that earlier copies produce. It's bokeh tends to swirl at open rose. It shows a distinctive dimensionality at medium close up shots with great skin tones and the cosmetic flatness which Leica is famous for. In my view, it's the perfect vintage 50mm without crying vintage. At f/2, it matches the 35mm Summicron V2 nicely. They are not cheap either anymore. There's also a late version with the inbuilt lenshood that is an aspheric design, nicknamed the E60 Summilux. I haven't shot with it and can't comment much on it other than stating the obvious: it's now in 3k-plus territory and likely quite similar to the modern M 50mm Summilux ASPH.

 

• The 50mm R range wouldn't be complete without mentioning the 50m Summicron R. Regardless of the generation, the 50mm Summicron Rs are old-fashioned 6-element double Gauss designs (like the M siblings) and it tells: an unexited, classic rendering without leaving a question. All version are very similar in their rendering, with biggest differences being the coatings and design. The V2 one has the inbuilt lens hood of the later Leica R and M lenses. I have both designs and prefer the latter one for its beefier focus barrel. In terms of real-world usability, the 50mm Summicron is probably the only 50mm you need for filmmaking. It's bokeh doesn't swirl like the Summilux but bokeh balls and flares look similar.

 

• The 85mm Summilux R is a legend. I don't have it because I'm not a long-lens person. I I were, I'd probly try to get hold on one of those. They left the sleeper status long ago. 

 

• The 90mm Elmarit is still quite cheap and does everything one would typically expect from a 90mm lens. It's (relatively) sharp from f/2.8 onwards, compact for a 90mm and renders nice, classic close-ups without notable character quirks. It flares when provoked and is arguably a must-have in an R prime set. When shooting little film projects, I use it 5% of the time, if at all. 

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2024 by hansvons

[3D-Kraft.com]

On which mount are you using these lenses?

If you are using E-Mount, the 28/35/50/75 T1.5 "Simera-C" Cine lens set from Thypoch may be an interesting alternative.

[pgk]

You could try: https://www.truelens.co.uk who offer many rehousing options. I only know them from the fact that they work on Cooke lenses.

[Sebastian S]

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb hansvons:

M lenses are not more suited than Leica R lenses for cine applications–on the contrary.

I can imagine that focus shift is not as much controlled on R lenses as on M lenses as that is more critical on range finders.
also wondering about focal length breathing during focus, can imagine that retro focal lenses have more problems with that.

[BernardC]

7 hours ago, robb said:

Wondering if the Leica factory or even independent shop will do the conversion and at what cost?

3 hours ago, hansvons said:

If you were looking for cine-modded Leica lenses without busting the bank, I'd cine-mod my Leica still lenses with this gear.

Unfortunately, those gears are for R lenses only. I have the same gears on my Contax/Zeiss lenses. The problem with adding gears to M lenses is the focus tab. It seems like something you could do with 3D printing, but I don't know of any source for these.

Robb, as hansvon pointed-out, M lenses aren't ideal for cinema use, mainly because of their size and construction. However, they should be OK for small productions like yours. You would want a matching set of fronts, so they match-up with your matte box, and matching focus gears. I personally wouldn't bother with gears on the aperture ring, unless you have a real need to change apertures while shooting, or to control the aperture remotely (on a drone or remote head).

The main reason why you would want to use M lenses is their unique look. Modern "Asph" M lenses can't really be matched by any other glass. The 0.8 set was a first attempt at this, and as I said you could do something similar with 3D-printed gears and step-up filter rings. These lenses were popular for short-form work (commercials, independent shorts), so Leitz Cine now offers the Hugo set which is more suitable for intensive use.

[robb]

Main use is on a DJI ronin 4D camera with built in gimbals like they used in the movie “civil war” etc.

i currently use my apo SL lenses which are all matched for size and weight.  They use a heavier counterweight solution and take advantage of Autofocus and also the lidar waveform from DJI.  
 

but for something even lighter and smaller, and a stop faster with a less clinical look, I was going to look into the m lenses for future work.  The 0.8 lenses are like 7-8 k new (the 50 noct is 14k) and I was just wondering if it would be cheaper to convert m lenses already owned.

the Hugo and other Leica Cine lenses make more sense from a modern crew point of view, but as a single shooter where lighter and smaller is better I am still interested in the 0.8

all great info and comments in the thread.  Still hoping someone has explored a conversion by Leica or other source.  
 

Robb

[hansvons]

2 hours ago, Sebastian S said:

I can imagine that focus shift is not as much controlled on R lenses as on M lenses as that is more critical on range finders.
also wondering about focal length breathing during focus, can imagine that retro focal lenses have more problems with that.

Can't say much to focus shift on the R lenses I listed above. Focus shift is an issue for all focussing techniques as long as one opens the aperture to achieve critical focus and closes the aperture to the working aperture and the focus distances differ at certain apertures. This is the case with regular SLR lenses and lenses for a RF system. The same can be said about proper cine lenses, as the issue also applies when using measure tape. So, there is no reason why R lenses are more prone to focus shift than M lenses. In any event, focus shift is not a virtue and should be avoided. 

Ragarding breathing, any Leica R primes breathes, as do M primes because breathing is a non-issue with stills photography. However, they are not particular bad at that or even unusable, and that can also be said about the 35mm Summicron R latest version, which seem to be (slighty informed guess) a similar design as the 35mm Summicron ASPH. Even the famous Zeiss Super Speeds from the same time exhibited some breathing and so do the today horrendously expensive Canon K35s. Back then, breathing wasn't such a thing, like bokeh, as it is today. Anamorphic lenses in the 70ies and 80ies were breathing to an extent that zooming would be a better word. 

[Photoworks]

I have used the Noctilux 0.95 for video, and it was ok, but fixing CA in post is much more practical in photos.

DUCLOS has makes CINE-MOD for customers for lenses with a focusing tab, 3D printed, the other rubber one works ok on lenses without tab.

ADAPTERS.  Once you use an adapter the lenses lose the infinity stop. you could use a helicoid adapter to calibrate the infinity yourself, but you would have to do it on every lens change.
The limitation of 0.70m distance of the M lenses remains, 1m for the 50 0.95
Recently I have used the Summicron-R lenses on the SL2 and SL3, they look nice, but in most cases, the client didn't even notice the look.
I have added a set of Panasonic-S lenses from 18 to 100mm, they are good for video, not sure sharp like the Leica APO lenses, but can fit well in the Leica -R filming option.
Many have 1.8, are very light and have great AF speed for video on the SL3. and you don't have the adapter moving the lens from the followfocus.

As you see many of us are in the same boat.

Maybe you want to look for anamorphic lenses next.

 

[tjphoto]

Amazing film shot with Leica M 0.8 .They definitely have special sauce.

The M 08 are interesting because 21mm 1.4 24mm1.4 28mm 1.4 50mm 0.95 

The R series do not have anything approaching these. Small, light and fast.

I’m currently assembling a set of Ms that I will cine mod. 

 

Edited December 10, 2024 by tjphoto

[robb]

2 hours ago, tjphoto said:

Amazing film shot with Leica M 0.8 .They definitely have special sauce.

The M 08 are interesting because 21mm 1.4 24mm1.4 28mm 1.4 50mm 0.95 

The R series do not have anything approaching these. Small, light and fast.

I’m currently assembling a set of Ms that I will cine mod. 

 

That was truly fantastic.  Thank you for sharing.

Robb

[hansvons]

16 hours ago, robb said:

but for something even lighter and smaller, and a stop faster with a less clinical look, I was going to look into the m lenses for future work.

Without order: lighting technique, framing, pace, casting, shot size, counterpoints, drama, location, dramatic hero‘s fall (emotional rollercoaster), costume colour/design/fabric, atmosphere (mist), grading, you name it make 99% of of a film‘s mood. 1% are the lenses’ personality. What’s important is how well a filmmaker can stage the various focal lengths to benefit the story and knows when, where, and what focal length works best in a given scene. That’s why many directors and DoP‘s have their preferred field of view that stages best their vision. 

3 hours ago, tjphoto said:

Amazing film shot with Leica M 0.8 .They definitely have special sauce.

Yes. But shooting an unseen and unexpected action quick-paced and over-cranked with a floating camera in an exotic location with a romantic nod to long-gone times would oozed the same spirit shot with SL primes of the same focal length.

For the audience, there would be no difference. For the filmmakers it’s a different story as often they are young men (at least at heart) and gain motivation from toying around with gear. Women, on the other hand, feel this differently. For them, it’s often more about the casting, the people, the faces, the relationships. 

Lens play a role in filmmaking, especially when moody pictures are on the menu that should be full of light, with flares and glow. That’s why vintage glass has its place. But artificial mist/atmosphere, large fixtures on cherry pickers, the sun, eyelight, and many more tricks are way more important than the gradual differences in lenses.
 

I’m saying this because I’d never butcher good M glass to cine-vise them if there are many other options out there, and if that were the 0.8 lenses that can be rented. Filmmaking is an expensive art. That’s why most DoPs rent and don't own. Owing equipment corners you into fewer choices.

[robb]

Received an email from Leitz cine in Germany:

Hello Robb,

I hope you are doing well!

Many thanks for contacting us!

I’m sorry to say that we don’t offer this upgrade.

Please let us know if you are interested in purchasing M 0.8 or HUGO and we can send a quote.

Please let us know if you have any further questions.

Happy Holidays!

Best regards
Robert

[Carlos cruz]

Yesterday had a shoot with alexa 35 and mini lf both equipped with m mount as I wanted to check how 0.8 lenses behave on the shoot and use the occasion to see how my own lenses will behave. I think I rather prefer Hugo sets as they are more robustly built have all optical properties of m lenses and have more practical minimum focus(rangefinder 0,7 sometimes is too limiting) I tried to mount my super angulon 21/3.4, late s/n, can’t be used on arri cameras. 

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 33 Minuten schrieb Carlos cruz:

I tried to mount my super angulon 21/3.4, late s/n, can’t be used on arri cameras. 

Due to optical issues?
That's propably the reason why they choosed the more telecentric WATE for Superman 2025?

[Carlos cruz]

Stack of filters in front of sensor is a bit too thick, it makes mounting lens physically impossible.

Edited January 30 by Carlos cruz

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[tjphoto]

Leica M are being used for Hollywood Block busters. WATE used for superman .

https://ymcinema.com/2025/01/13/the-lens-behind-the-look-of-superman-2025-leica-tri-elmar/

Edited January 31 by tjphoto

[Carlos cruz]

11 hours ago, tjphoto said:

Leica M are being used for Hollywood Block busters. WATE used for superman .

https://ymcinema.com/2025/01/13/the-lens-behind-the-look-of-superman-2025-leica-tri-elmar/

I believe that m0.8 lenses will be rather niche episode in cinema production. I like them for their character. Camera assistants had ambivalent feelings about size, close focus at 0,7 or even 1m, very short focus throw, and how delicate they are compared to Hugo lineup. They work great in situations that ask for light, small lenses, but for regular shooting I’d rather pick hugos with uniform t stops, bigger selection of focal lengths, more practical close focus and  sturdily built to withstand rough life on the set.

M0.8s probably will be used on rare occasions on stunt/special camera etc They were primarily built with photography in mind and I do love them on m’s but not so much on arri.