M11-P vs M10-R [Deals Chances]

[Derbyshire Man]

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1 hour ago, Velo-city said:

Having recently been through a smilier dilemma and gone for an M11 to try as my first M, I'll throw out a different view and suggest keeping your Q and waiting for the M12 to come out.  

You'll get a lot of feedback about the M11 being 'mostly stable' now, but that's in Leica terms and is not to say it's 100% stable and quirk-free for everyone, and certainly not in my case.  I think Leica M owners perhaps have a higher tolerance for 'quirks' and instability than in other brands maybe..... many are seemingly just happy that the thing now turns on and stays on, doesn't corrupt files, doesn't need the battery to be ejected continuously, randomly overexposes less often, and produces colours that can be bought back to natural tones in post.  Well, what more to expect over two and half years after the release of a flagship £8K camera body!

The thing is, the price of a used M10-R isn't that far off an M11, and you're buying a camera that quite old in digital terms.  Then 10 another step cheaper but still expensive and that's ancient in digital terms.  While the rangefinder aspect is somewhat timeless (the viewfinder could be from a camera a generation back at least), the digital side of camera technology moves on rapidly and you'll have something far older feeling than your Fuji etc.  

But I probably won't talk you out of it.  I didn't manage to talk myself out of it - there's a certain allure of trying an 'M', a little snobbery perhaps too.  But I think it's very over-rated and over-priced.

 

Edited to say that probably sounds over-negative, even through my frustrations.  The thing is there's a lot to like about the M system.  I want to love it - it's compact, has good resolution, rangefinder focus is nice (but not the best of the two brands I have), and the lenses are tiny and bright. It combines some classic heritage with new tech.

But I have high expectations at the price, and a low threshold for kit that doesn't work well - either through software/hardware execution or design flaws. In those terms, I feel the camera is poor value.  To me.

I’ve seen quite a few of us write this, wait for the M12 it will be better. However many of these cameras have taken a substantial time to reach firmware maturity and stability (and this isn’t exclusive to Leica) so there’s every likelihood you’d be waiting until the M12 has been out for two years! So that’s probably four years away. Personally I don’t like the vanilla versions and a P and M version is even further away than that. 
 

Additional information: you’re a very long time dead. 
 

It reminds me of the elderly singletons still waiting for the perfect partner who meets all of the criteria on the tick list on their phone. 

Edited November 24, 2024 by Derbyshire Man

[Velo-city]

19 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said:

I’ve seen quite a few of us write this, wait for the M12 it will be better. However many of these cameras have taken a substantial time to reach firmware maturity and stability (and this isn’t exclusive to Leica) so there’s every likelihood you’d be waiting until the M12 has been out for two years! So that’s probably four years away. Personally I don’t like the vanilla versions and a P and M version is even further away than that. 
 

Additional information: you’re a very long time dead. 
 

It reminds me of the elderly singletons still waiting for the perfect partner who meets all of the criteria on the tick list on their phone. 

Haha, yeah fair enough!

I’m probably feeling a bit grumpy this morning having been getting quotes for the sale of my M11 and lens. Hard to know whether to take the hit now and wait or move to something else, or just hold onto it and live with it and at least get some more use out of it before waving goodbye to the  cash.…..

But based on my extremely limited experience of a single M, and as someone who likes things to work somewhat properly,  I still don’t think they could release an M worse than the 11. 

Edited November 24, 2024 by Velo-city

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[Crem]

2 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

I’ve seen quite a few of us write this, wait for the M12 it will be better.

I’ve been burned twice by Leica (m11 and steel rim reissue) and never again will I be an early adopter of a new Leica product. This means I’ll wait until the m12 launches and then continue waiting until I know the product is stable. It will be fairly obvious how buggy it is or isn’t thanks to this forum. Just look at the goofiness of the m11-d launch firmware and I really don’t think Leica has learned their lesson yet. No ability to format the internal 256gb storage? That should have 100% prevented launching the camera.  

[Derbyshire Man]

I absolutely love my M11P and M11M, even the goofy M11D, which has been well behaved even without formatting the internal memory (although I agree it was an odd choice to initially leave it out of the firmware).

[Derbyshire Man]

3 hours ago, Velo-city said:

Haha, yeah fair enough!

I’m probably feeling a bit grumpy this morning having been getting quotes for the sale of my M11 and lens. Hard to know whether to take the hit now and wait or move to something else, or just hold onto it and live with it and at least get some more use out of it before waving goodbye to the  cash.…..

But based on my extremely limited experience of a single M, and as someone who likes things to work somewhat properly,  I still don’t think they could release an M worse than the 11. 

I think I'd keep it. By far and a way the most likely outcome is continuously improving firmware and therefore reputation and therefore value.

[Crem]

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4 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

I absolutely love my M11P and M11M, even the goofy M11D, which has been well behaved even without formatting the internal memory (although I agree it was an odd choice to initially leave it out of the firmware).

Who knows if they will add it. For example, they never added manual lens selection for the M10-D. I really do hope they do at least add a M11-D format option since it exists for the M10-D.

It’s been about a year and they still haven’t fixed the focus stick zoom feature they broke in firmware 6.0 for the SL2-S with manual lenses. 
 

 

[Derbyshire Man]

39 minutes ago, Crem said:

Who knows if they will add it. For example, they never added manual lens selection for the M10-D. I really do hope they do at least add a M11-D format option since it exists for the M10-D.

It’s been about a year and they still haven’t fixed the focus stick zoom feature they broke in firmware 6.0 for the SL2-S with manual lenses. 
 

 

It’s in beta and working.

[hdmesa]

6 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

It’s in beta and working.

The formatting in FOTOS for the M11-D or the fix for the broken joystick zooming?

[colonel]

On 11/24/2024 at 10:36 AM, Velo-city said:

The thing is, the price of a used M10-R isn't that far off an M11, and you're buying a camera that quite old in digital terms.  Then 10 another step cheaper but still expensive and that's ancient in digital terms.  While the rangefinder aspect is somewhat timeless (the viewfinder could be from a camera a generation back at least), the digital side of camera technology moves on rapidly and you'll have something far older feeling than your Fuji etc.  

Just one point here. Whilst you are right, technology has moved on. It might be fair to say the M10 was old technology even in its day. For me M is all about focus, aperture and speed. As long as the pictures look good with a good M lens I care less about the camera. That is an M10 is fine fiddle its still down to the photographer. Absolutely the quieter shutter of the P is good to have, the extra resolution of the R. the lighter weight and extra resolution of the M11, etc. but in the big scheme of things as long as the electronics continues to work (and my AF canon from the 80s works fine, together with my TRS-80 model 100 - 1983 - stunner!) its what one actually needs. 

In summary, I wouldn't chose to have a camera just because it is newer, unless it has features which were useful to me and I would actually use!

 

[charlesphoto99]

23 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

I think I'd keep it. By far and a way the most likely outcome is continuously improving firmware and therefore reputation and therefore value.

The M11 is at the end of the line. M12 should be out in a year, or less if they decide to do a spring release. If history is anything to go by, there will be no more firmware updates for the 11. Heck, in some parts of the world, it's almost impossible to find a new battery for the M10. These companies want/need for their consumers to move on. The only way they can do that is by hamstringing (either purposefully or subconsciously) their older product. It doesn't make them any less of a camera, but don't expect late 'fixes' for anything. 

[hdmesa]

8 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

The M11 is at the end of the line. M12 should be out in a year, or less if they decide to do a spring release. If history is anything to go by, there will be no more firmware updates for the 11. Heck, in some parts of the world, it's almost impossible to find a new battery for the M10. These companies want/need for their consumers to move on. The only way they can do that is by hamstringing (either purposefully or subconsciously) their older product. It doesn't make them any less of a camera, but don't expect late 'fixes' for anything. 

Model release cadence is 5 years unless they break with tradition and don't produce an M11 Safari or Reporter. 

Last firmware update after release of next model:

• M10-P/R: ~1 year so far
• M Typ 240: ~4 years
• M9 ~5 years

[thrid]

As a former M10 owner and current M11 shooter. 

Here's my take.

- The biggest advantage of the M11 is the matrix metering. It's a pretty big deal if you are shooting on the run and in situations where the light is changing quickly.

- M11 battery life is better, but I had three batteries for my M10 and it was fine.

- USB-charging on the M11 is a really nice feature.

- 60MP is nice, but unless you are printing billboards I highly doubt you'll see a big difference from the 40MP in the M10-R. Besides, with hand holding and anything but the newest glass the difference probably becomes academic.

- In the tests that I have seen the M10-R is only slightly behind the M11 in terms of dynamic range. So the difference is between 'fantastic' for the M11 and 'really good' for the M10-R

- I still feel that the shutter release on the M10 is crisper than on the M11.

- The M11 shutter shuffle takes a moment to get used to. 

- My M10 was super reliable. So, far my M11 has been equally bulletproof, but there are people out there with issues.

 

Personally I would still buy an M10-R, if I found one at a good price. It's without a doubt the best of the 'old school' digital M bodies.

 

Edited November 26, 2024 by thrid

[hdmesa]

48 minutes ago, thrid said:

...The biggest advantage of the M11 is the matrix metering*...

*when using the rangefinder.

Billboards can be printed with low resolution files because the viewing distance is so large. Maybe "wall-sized" prints is more to your meaning.

I like the M10-R, but I don't like having two different kinds of batteries, so I would not consider adding one alongside my M11-D. If the M10-R had in-camera charging, I might feel differently.

Edited November 26, 2024 by hdmesa

[Netto Pavezi]

Thanks, everyone, for all the valid inputs here! They all make sense to me. 

At the moment, I'm trying to sell some additional stuff and decide which route will get, but I guess I won't make it in time for the 11-P... It's really something that I wouldn't commit my bank account just for the sake of it either. It's a great hobby of mine but not a pro tool, so have to put the logic a bit before anything else. 

In the meantime, I even thought about getting a Nikon ZF now during Black Friday, as I found new bodies for just €1,600. I could use them with Leica lenses, but the experience wouldn't be the same... 

 

 

[colonel]

10 minutes ago, Netto Pavezi said:

Thanks, everyone, for all the valid inputs here! They all make sense to me. 

At the moment, I'm trying to sell some additional stuff and decide which route will get, but I guess I won't make it in time for the 11-P... It's really something that I wouldn't commit my bank account just for the sake of it either. It's a great hobby of mine but not a pro tool, so have to put the logic a bit before anything else. 

In the meantime, I even thought about getting a Nikon ZF now during Black Friday, as I found new bodies for just €1,600. I could use them with Leica lenses, but the experience wouldn't be the same... 

 

 

Neither would the quality, as the sensor is not designed for them, e.g. angled edge lenses. I have never had good results with Leica M lenses on mirrorless cameras. The Leica SL series is better, as it is designed to work with them

[Netto Pavezi]

@colonel Yeah, that makes total sense. I just read some reviews on how easy it is to use manual focus on it, though. Anyway, I prefer to save it for the near future and the Leica camera.  I hope to get the best bang for the buck. 

[otto.f]

58 minutes ago, Netto Pavezi said:

the meantime, I even thought about getting a Nikon ZF now during Black Friday, as I found new bodies for just €1,600. I could use them with Leica lenses, but the experience wouldn't be the same... 

except that the Nikon Z colors are above Sony, Leica and Fuji. IMO. I don’t know about Leica M lenses at the edges of a Z image, but I don’t know either if that’s in the domain of pixel peeping

Edited November 26, 2024 by otto.f

[charlesphoto99]

1 hour ago, Al Brown said:

Not OK to spread this nonsense. We have established and proven in several threads that this is NOT TRUE.

Sorry, I should have prefaced, if you are in the USA. And in a couple of months from now, if one can get one (in the USA) it may cost upwards of $250 if somebody does what they are promising to do re tariffs. It's a first world issue, for sure, but it's an issue (if you are in the USA). All that said, for most users, one battery should suffice for a very long time. But always best practice to have a second. 

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[thrid]

On 11/26/2024 at 5:12 PM, hdmesa said:

*when using the rangefinder.

Billboards can be printed with low resolution files because the viewing distance is so large. Maybe "wall-sized" prints is more to your meaning.

It's a figure of speech...

And yes, billboards are surprisingly low in resolution and aided by great viewing distance.

On 11/26/2024 at 5:12 PM, hdmesa said:

I like the M10-R, but I don't like having two different kinds of batteries, so I would not consider adding one alongside my M11-D. If the M10-R had in-camera charging, I might feel differently.

I agree with this. Two different batteries is annoying, made even more annoying by the need to carry around the charger for the M10 type batteries.