M11-P vs M10-R [Deals Chances]

[Netto Pavezi]

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Hey guys, 

I'm very new here! I've been a Fuji shooter for years and a Q3 one since last year (love it!).

This harmful drug bit me, and I want an M now to open the lens possibilities with the system. :) 

I am starting from scratch, so I am really in a tricky situation as I would either get a very used body (M10 beaten up like €4k) and a so-so lens to keep all I have or sell the Q3 and all Fuji lenses, keeping my XT-5 body just for safety if I won't ever get used to the M system or want both systems working together. Maybe with the new Fuji zoom 15-55 2.8 ii.  

Thought on getting initially a 50mm Summicron used v4/v5 (~ €1,100 - €1,500) and/or a cheaper 35mm (ZEISS C Biogon f2.8, Voigtländer Ultron f2 Type II, Voigtlander NOKTON Vintage Line  F1.5, Voigtländer APO-Lanthar F/2.0, Voigtländer F1.2 III NOKTON VM, ZEISS Distagon f1.4 M,... - so many options!)

Or give up on all and get a used 35 Summilux + a cheaper body. 

I have the chance to get two deals in my view: 

M10-R used from Leica Rome Store in Italy—€5,150. It's a bit beaten up but reasonably priced. Leica reviewed it and has a 2-year warrant with them.

M11-P NEW from an official dealer in Andorra state — € 7,099 — has much lower sales taxes and an excellent Black Friday discount, but I only see any sense on getting this by selling all I have, including a small drone. 

It's a tough call, given the excellent price on the 11-P, and it won't stay forever. The M10-R used prices are usually close to the M11 base model (6k+), which pushes me to the latest, even though I've read many complaints about this camera... I found good ones, 5,5k, but for the silver color, that. I don't want (calls too much attention for my taste). 

What would the most experienced guys in the Leica world would recommend? Thanks a lot for your input.

Edited November 20, 2024 by Netto Pavezi

[jaapv]

There is nothing wrong with an M10. If anything it is more problem-free than an M11. Don't fall into the megapixel marketing trap. 

 

[Tseg]

I'll chime in as we are on a similar glidepath... only because my remaining life may be less than yours I accelerated from a Q3 43 to an M11 in a relatively short period of time, but kept both.   I'm only a few days into using the M11-D, but I will say the Q3 is definitely much more quick and easy early on.  They are both similar size and weight.   It has been raining since my 1st M lens arrived so I've been walking around the house practicing zone focusing.   I can see how that can become a very quick method with experience.  The other thing to consider is no stabilization... in lower light you either are taking pics with higher ISO or you can use a tripod... I think I'll be making more B&W photos with my M11 vs. the Q as a result (In my northern climate there is a lot of darkness half the year).

I generally buy equipment for the long haul.  I have read Leica tends to discontinue support of older digital cameras around the 10 year mark after discontinuation.  If true, it means a fair amount less time of support left for the M10 vs M11... but more experienced folks can chime in here.  If you are thinking of upgrading bodies in the next 5 years, this may be a non-issue.

I spent over a decade photographing with a single camera with a 35mm prime lens.  My style is to not have immense photographic equipment diversity.  But we are all different, so only you know if you need all that photographic equipment, or can less be more for you?  For me, having fewer nicer things has always proven to be more rewarding than having a lot of less nice things.

[Minigill]

I am in the same scenario but probably a step further having sold all my Fuji gear !

I changed my original Q for the Q3 to sit with the Q3 43.  Still have both '3's at the moment..  however after spending a day at Leica Acadamie for street stuff (thankyou Mayfair !), and the itch to scratch..... what is an M, can I use it.... one came out on the street as well as my Q3.  Result, loved it.

Well, lets just say I am test driving a M from Mayfair in just over a week.  One of the Q's will have to go for sure, prob the 28 as this is probably the lens I may purchase or 35.  I am still not bonding with the 43 and only time will tell if that goes.  At the moment it sits unloved, and a hand full of pics.  Its not inspring me to pick it up currently, but may change.

I need a simple one camera, 2 lens to remove the oh which lens, camera, brand etc shall I take out which I hated (don;t forget which bag as well !).  Not regretted getting rid of the Fuji, loved it, don't get me wrong.

The street day out with Tutor opened my eyes to look for the light.. and probably a change in camera !  Latter not planned !  A nice black friday deal would be perfect 😀

Edited November 21, 2024 by Minigill

[vkdev]

10 hours ago, Netto Pavezi said:

I've read many complaints about this camera...

After the latest updates M11 has become quite stable. 

[Derbyshire Man]

If you are just going to dip your toe in the water then the M10R probably makes more sense. I have a small flock of M11's however having started Praktika-> Canon -> Fuji -> Leica.

I still have all of my Canon and Fuji gear and have touched the Fuji about twice in the last year (out of a sense of duty) and the Canon not at all (if I'd had sport to shoot would have been different). My overall feeling however is that if I had to sell all of my Fuji gear I'd have low risk of regret.

[JNK100]

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Hi Netto

I had an M9 and 50mm 'Lux about ten years ago which I foolishly sold after a few years.

This, I have always regretted . I had some Fuji equipment which was very good but the M is a special beast.

If it were me, I would get the M10R and a 35 or 50mm.

Good luck!

Jeff

 

[Smudgerer]

I tend to agree with most of the differing advice here, there's pluses and minuses whichever way you look at it.

Up to recently this year I had four M10's, M10-P / M10-R / M10-D / M10-M, yes too many, but I swore up and down that I wouldn't be interested in a M11 of any flavour even as a gift, the M10's did everything I needed a digital Leica rangefinder camera to do for the way I work, then the M11-D was finally let out of the traps, my dealer sent me one on "trial" and all protestations went out of the window.

My well liked M10-D had a slew of problems over the time I owned it so albeit somewhat regretfully that was an easy one to dump and even though most of my imaging is in B&W the output of the M11-D in terms of colour pushed the M10-R out the door too, I didn't expect to like the M11-D as much as I do and touch wood I've had no issues with it so far, now that and an analogue M are my choice of cameras to go out with.

I will keep the M10-P because when I wanted to shoot in colour I have always liked the 24mp sensor, ( I shoot the M11-D mostly at 18mp and have found no reason to step higher as of yet ). The M10-M? There's no sound reason to let that go either so it stays.

If I had any advice to offer the OP I would also look at a good M10-P as an option to dip a toe into the digital M world, it is a fine camera still and good examples are holding their pricing well so I would expect it to be decent in terms of trade-in later on if/when you feel you want to step up...........And honestly 24mps are more than enough for 90% of what is photographed these days and in regards to what I see posted here on this Leica Forum.

Edited November 21, 2024 by Smudgerer

[Netto Pavezi]

Hello guys, 

 

Thanks so much for your informative view. 

@jaapv - I know it, even though I've been cropping almost every photo I edit. Not heavily, but it's nice to have extra pixels if I need to, especially with no zoom lenses in the M system. As I read, Leica did an excellent job of engineering higher megapixel sensors without sacrificing too much DR.

@Tseg - about how old the body is, and Leica's support is good advice. I know that accessories like batteries get harder and harder to get. Maintenance-wise, I guess the same, given the turnaround times Leica told me when I had to send my Q3 for a viewfinder repair (I believe it was delaminating the glass protection due to sunscreen use). That was one of my thoughts on keeping the Q3 only, along with an M and selling all Fuji stuff... In the end of the day, it's a 28mm Summilux and a FOV that rangefinders can't offer in the VF (at least the M10-11), beyond the benefits of AF, compactness, etc. And about the learning curve, yes, I'm aware and prepared for it, seeing a lot of RF technique videos and practicing with the MF with the Q3 (without live preview).

@Minigill Uow, 3 Qs at once is a crazy setup hahah, but it's probably interesting to understand the best FOV for you. Yes, I tested a Q3 43 in Kyoto, Japan, and thought it was much less versatile than the original one for a one-lens camera. At least with the Q3, I can crop to 35-50. I found a place to rent a Leica M10 or 11 in Barcelona, where I live, but man, it's 235€ for a single day of use with a 35 lux... I can already save this money to invest in something. Ab, the Fuji gear has a kind of sentimentalism on it as I've been using it for so many years... I didn't want to get rid of and keep at least a body just in case... 

@vkdev Yes, with the 2.3.1 FW, I believe everything became more stable, even though the early units seem to have a motherboard issue that is impossible to fix without replacing it. The only extra "issue" I read just yesterday is the magenta tint in OOC jpegs or in raw while de-mosaicing. Still, this is less problematic to fix, I believe, but I read some guys around here even sent it to Wetzlar for a "sensor calibration."  

@Derbyshire Man Yes, from a financial perspective, too. With the €2k difference, I could invest in at least two used lenses (50 cron v4 and Zeiss Bigon 35 2.8). It's just a perfect deal for a new 11-P with the latest tech, and keeping it for at least 6-8 years attracts me.  

@JNK100 hey, thanks for sharing. My pockets drive me that way, but my GAS is the opposite. My idea was to have a very minimalist setup for the sake of my relationship with my GF (she wants me free to hold a baby and my back on travels. So the M system makes sense to me if I can master it ofc. Keeping the Fuji is just psychological, I believe.

@SmudgererYes, I've been debating myself about sensor tech and reading/viewing a ton of stuff. 24mp vs. 40mp vs. 60|36|18mp binned tech—beyond resolution itself, there are some advantages and disadvantages to consider, like storage, color shifting in high ISOs, DR, blown highlights, color science, etc. It seems an endless discussion and entirely subjective at some point. I love the output of the Q3 overall, so it's the only taste I've ever had from a Leica. From the examples I see, M10-P looks easy to clip highlights (while base ISO looks incorrectly set to 200), M10-R looks duller and has to work more with the files with a much better highlight recovery capability but shifting colors when pushing shadows, and the magenta tint with the M11 variants. I'm not sure what is subjective or fixable or not. 

Ah, and yes! A M10-P is my "dark horse" now. If I find a good deal for it, why not? However, with the pricing of the M10-R falling, as I've observed, I'm unsure if it justifies it. If it were just for the looks of it, that would be a resounding yes 100% because I love it, and it was the only M body I've ever tried out for real from Leica. A mix between the R and P would be a perfect son to me

Edited November 21, 2024 by Netto Pavezi

[JoshuaR]

I started with an M2, then got an M10, then sold it to move to the combination of M10-R and an M10M. 

The M10-R is an extraordinarily capable camera. When it was released it was widely said that it was the "ultimate M." (Take a look at this article, for instance.) I have been absolutely satisfied with mine and have mostly felt little desire to upgrade. Certainly I don't feel that I'm missing anything meaningful in terms of image quality.

That said, if I were starting from scratch today, I would probably go for an M11. The main reason is battery life. I'm packing for a trip this morning, bringing my M10-R plus three batteries plus a charger. If I had the M11, I would pack just the camera and rely on USB charging. The step up in convenience would be substantial. The Visoflex 2 is also a real step up from the previous generation. It's useful for long lenses. Finally, having handled the black M11 in person, I'm impressed by the reduction in weight. I would prefer a lighter camera.

The quality of life improvements seem pretty meaningful, and it seems like the M11 is now stable after a lot of firmware revision. I personally am unlikely to upgrade (although you never know!), but given the price differences between used M10-Rs and M11s, I'd go for the newer camera if I were starting from scratch.

[Netto Pavezi]

Hey @JoshuaRothman

Thanks for your feedback!

An M10-R & M looks like a fantastic combo. 

I've also been tempted to buy an M, but I can't justify the cost now, especially if the M becomes my only camera. I want colors, too. 

Yes, I agree, and that's why I'm so tempted to jump straight to the last version for some time proof. With this price, I can still sell it in the used market, profiting shortly if I want or need it. But everything must go in this scenario to fund it and the lenses. 

I'm pretty sure the R would be a grat addition as well while keeping at least my X-T5. 

[pedaes]

30 minutes ago, Netto Pavezi said:

pricing of the M10-R falling

Do you need the extra mp's?  If you do, go for the M11 with all its advantages.

[BruceRH]

Buy the newest technology you can afford. I have had my M11-P for a year now, zero issues. I sold my M10-R and while I loved that camera, the M11-P is just better, for me.

The use of the Leica Fotos app is faster, Geo tagging is much more seamless and downloading images to a phone or iPad is very quick.

USB C charging is a big deal for me, no more remembering to pack a charger.

The M11-P battery lasts much longer. I rarely go through a battery during a day of shooting where I easily went through nearly 2 on the M10-R. If the battery were to get low, I can easily top it off on a break with USB C charging.

The built in memory is nice to have as insurance. Yes, I did leave the house once without an SD card, ugh.

Cost of entry into the Leica world is high, but depreciation is much less compared to other brands. If you can buy an M11-P for a great price, go for it. I bought my M10-R for a great price, used it 2 years and sold it for just a few hundred less than I paid. Try doing that with another brand. Lenses are even better at holding value, again particularly if you buy used. 

Good luck with your decision!

Edited November 21, 2024 by BruceRH

[Photoworks]

it is official.

 

Buy! Buy ! Buy!

https://leicacamerausa.com/m11-glossy-black-finish.html?utm_campaign=buy-now_leica-camera-com&utm_source=leica-camera-com&utm_medium=hero%3Abutton_20230#_gl=1*1whiz2o*_gcl_au*MTQwOTI1NDI3MC4xNzMwODIyNDEw

[Crem]

I had both the M11 and M10-R. I sold the M11 due to crashes and buggy firmware. I kept the M10-R. They both take great photos so it’s really about stability and which set of features you like most.

The only feature of the M11 I miss is usb charging and the battery life. Honestly though that only matters when going on a big trip. It really doesn’t impact daily life to put an extra battery in a pocket. Definitely make sure you have at least two M10 batteries if you get the M10-R. I was fine with only one with the M11. The batteries are difficult to find in the USA so make sure they have new ones in stock if you get the M10-R.

I could never give up the stability of my M10-R. It has always worked, never crashes, and I can rely on it. If the M11-P has this level of reliability then I would be happy using it.

Given your two choices I’d try to find out more of the M10-R history. How is it beaten up? Shutter count? Black chrome tends to show wear unlike the M11 finish, but it doesn’t matter. I’d avoid any copy that looks like it was abused (dents, rangefinder scratches, etc).

Also which type of metering you prefer? The M11 is going to be more like your Fuji and Q3.

Personally I’d be tempted by the M11-P, but I prefer the M10-R experience.

 

 

[jgeenen]

M10-R or M11 - doesn‘t really matter. The differences are subtle, the shooting experience is largely the same. Leicanians tend to magnify the differences. The lenses make the real difference. If you are short on money, go for the M10. used with warranty limits the risk and keeps the value. Depending on your shooting style you might need a second battery. Begin with a 35 or 50mm lens, f/2 is more than ok.

If you are a sharpness fanatic and on budget, consider the Voigtländer APO-Lanthars. If you want it small, the new Voigtländers 2.2/50 and 2.8/28 are great options. But take a look at the often overlooked Summarit 2.4 or 2.5 lens series, too. 

but be warned! The Summilux 35 asph. and 50 asph. are promising premium Leica experience with moderate sizes. Most of us are saving tons of cash to get and use one of those (although they aren’t so much better than competition nowadays).

a final word on your Fuji. Keep it. You might end up using it not so often but if you need something for wildlife, events, or macro, it will give you at least the opportunity to participate.

 

[Netto Pavezi]

At the moment I write it, the 10-R is gone from Leica's used store 😕 

https://classic.leica-camera.com/en/Leica-M10-P-black-chrome/20021SH-5334752

A P in good condition is left, but 500 more. 

An M11 showed up good price too - https://phototoolsweb.com/telemetricas/2826-leica-m11-negra.html

@Photoworks And, yes, officially, the glossy one is here : https://leica-camera.com/es-ES/fotografia/camaras/m/m11-brillante-negro?utm_source=CRM&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20241121_HQ_ES_LNL_M_fil

But it's 2k more than I would pay for the 11-P. I wish they had done it on its platform instead of the 11s. 

@BruceRH agreed! it offset the investment nicely I guess like the Apple products do.

@Crem good point about the metering. I've read it's made on the sensor for the first time. I rather prefer that way tbh, even though the shutter sound experience is not as nice as the 10 they say.

@jgeenen yeap! thought on investing in Leica lenses only before the body so I could pair with my Fuji beforehand, but didn't see too much sense. Not a Nikon ZF. I could afford the 11-P but will break the bank with the lenses a bit, hence I need to sell all but would keep my Fuji body for a while just in case... 

[satijntje]

Am 21.11.2024 um 15:19 schrieb Crem:

I had both the M11 and M10-R. I sold the M11 due to crashes and buggy firmware. I kept the M10-R. They both take great photos so it’s really about stability and which set of features you like most.

The only feature of the M11 I miss is usb charging and the battery life. Honestly though that only matters when going on a big trip. It really doesn’t impact daily life to put an extra battery in a pocket. Definitely make sure you have at least two M10 batteries if you get the M10-R. I was fine with only one with the M11. The batteries are difficult to find in the USA so make sure they have new ones in stock if you get the M10-R.

I could never give up the stability of my M10-R. It has always worked, never crashes, and I can rely on it. If the M11-P has this level of reliability then I would be happy using it.

Given your two choices I’d try to find out more of the M10-R history. How is it beaten up? Shutter count? Black chrome tends to show wear unlike the M11 finish, but it doesn’t matter. I’d avoid any copy that looks like it was abused (dents, rangefinder scratches, etc).

Also which type of metering you prefer? The M11 is going to be more like your Fuji and Q3.

Personally I’d be tempted by the M11-P, but I prefer the M10-R experience.

 

 

+1, M10-R in BP also for me

[Velo-city]

Having recently been through a smilier dilemma and gone for an M11 to try as my first M, I'll throw out a different view and suggest keeping your Q and waiting for the M12 to come out.  

You'll get a lot of feedback about the M11 being 'mostly stable' now, but that's in Leica terms and is not to say it's 100% stable and quirk-free for everyone, and certainly not in my case.  I think Leica M owners perhaps have a higher tolerance for 'quirks' and instability than in other brands maybe..... many are seemingly just happy that the thing now turns on and stays on, doesn't corrupt files, doesn't need the battery to be ejected continuously, randomly overexposes less often, and produces colours that can be bought back to natural tones in post.  Well, what more to expect over two and half years after the release of a flagship £8K camera body!

The thing is, the price of a used M10-R isn't that far off an M11, and you're buying a camera that quite old in digital terms.  Then 10 another step cheaper but still expensive and that's ancient in digital terms.  While the rangefinder aspect is somewhat timeless (the viewfinder could be from a camera a generation back at least), the digital side of camera technology moves on rapidly and you'll have something far older feeling than your Fuji etc.  

But I probably won't talk you out of it.  I didn't manage to talk myself out of it - there's a certain allure of trying an 'M', a little snobbery perhaps too.  But I think it's very over-rated and over-priced.

 

Edited to say that probably sounds over-negative, even through my frustrations.  The thing is there's a lot to like about the M system.  I want to love it - it's compact, has good resolution, rangefinder focus is nice (but not the best of the two brands I have), and the lenses are tiny and bright. It combines some classic heritage with new tech.

But I have high expectations at the price, and a low threshold for kit that doesn't work well - either through software/hardware execution or design flaws. In those terms, I feel the camera is poor value.  To me.

Edited November 24, 2024 by Velo-city

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[otto.f]

On 11/20/2024 at 8:46 PM, Netto Pavezi said:

Hey guys, 

I'm very new here! I've been a Fuji shooter for years and a Q3 one since last year (love it!).

This harmful drug bit me, and I want an M now to open the lens possibilities with the system. :) 

I am starting from scratch, so I am really in a tricky situation as I would either get a very used body (M10 beaten up like €4k) and a so-so lens to keep all I have or sell the Q3 and all Fuji lenses, keeping my XT-5 body just for safety if I won't ever get used to the M system or want both systems working together. Maybe with the new Fuji zoom 15-55 2.8 ii.  

Thought on getting initially a 50mm Summicron used v4/v5 (~ €1,100 - €1,500) and/or a cheaper 35mm (ZEISS C Biogon f2.8, Voigtländer Ultron f2 Type II, Voigtlander NOKTON Vintage Line  F1.5, Voigtländer APO-Lanthar F/2.0, Voigtländer F1.2 III NOKTON VM, ZEISS Distagon f1.4 M,... - so many options!)

Or give up on all and get a used 35 Summilux + a cheaper body. 

I have the chance to get two deals in my view: 

M10-R used from Leica Rome Store in Italy—€5,150. It's a bit beaten up but reasonably priced. Leica reviewed it and has a 2-year warrant with them.

M11-P NEW from an official dealer in Andorra state — € 7,099 — has much lower sales taxes and an excellent Black Friday discount, but I only see any sense on getting this by selling all I have, including a small drone. 

It's a tough call, given the excellent price on the 11-P, and it won't stay forever. The M10-R used prices are usually close to the M11 base model (6k+), which pushes me to the latest, even though I've read many complaints about this camera... I found good ones, 5,5k, but for the silver color, that. I don't want (calls too much attention for my taste). 

What would the most experienced guys in the Leica world would recommend? Thanks a lot for your input.

Read this first:

and you won't regret an M10-R 

Edited November 24, 2024 by otto.f