Help! Anyone able to flash sync at 1/2000?

[Makkuro]

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Hello Ladies and Gent - long time lurker and finally create an account.  Recently acquired a Q3 for on-location portrait work, but I can't get the flash to sync at 1/2000 - after some testing it turns out the flash fires too late.  Strobe used is a Profoto A2.  Is this just me (or this specific setup)?  Have any of you been able to successfully strobe at 1/2000?

I understand there will be SOME light-loss from the shutter speed being shorter than flash duration; but since the A2's t0.5 time is advertised at 1/1200, under ideal situation I should be able to expect less than 1 stop difference between 1/2000 and 1/1000.  However, we are seeing easily 3-stops drop in exposure.  (Exposure difference between 1/1000 vs 1/500 is visible but not dramatic).  After 3 frustrating days I finally dig up the high-speed camera and filmed this.

 

Below is a photo of the test setup.  The A2 is aimed at the Litemons continuous light, which is visible on the left-side of the video (as a blurry, out-of-focus mess) so we can see exactly when does the flash fires compare to shutter operation.  It seems at 1/2000, by the time the A2 fires the shutter has already begun to close, and almost 80% closed when the A2 reaches full output.  This matches up with the actual photo exposures as stated above.

Is there a delay on the wireless transmission, and can that be addressed?  I do recall if we mount an A10 directly on the Q43, we get expected exposure results at 1/2000 - which suggests "on camera" flash (with no delay?) does fire at the optimal timing; however unlike the Sony A9-III I haven't found any "flash sync delay" in the Q3 yet...  I am sure we just missed something; if you guys can share your experience it will be much appreciated!!  I like this setup so much I really don't want to consider returning all of them...

 

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[Cogito]

just checking simple stuff: 

-you have flash mode set to “on” and not “slow sync”?

-you have flash sync set to “start of exp.” (first curtain sync)?

I’m sure someone with more flash knowledge will chime in (or tell you to rtfm)

 

[Photon42]

The Q has a leaf shutter - so there is in principle not really a light loss, as long as the flash output largely/completely fits into the timing window given by the shutter speed.

xx|...|...|...|...| flash output

|......................| longer shutter speed

|.......| shorter shutter speed --> misses more than 50% of the flash output

"xx" is the delay caused by the wireless connection.

Profoto already seems to be best game in town for fast wireless transfer, but it cannot beat a cable. So put your flash to a very short duration, which is usually achieved by using a lower power mode AND add use a cable. There are hot shoe adapters with a flash cable contact both for camera and flash.

Does that help?

[Makkuro]

23 hours ago, Cogito said:

just checking simple stuff: 

-you have flash mode set to “on” and not “slow sync”?

-you have flash sync set to “start of exp.” (first curtain sync)?

I’m sure someone with more flash knowledge will chime in (or tell you to rtfm)

 

Thanks for the suggestions!!  But yes... all of those have been checked.  In fact, we've even tried the "wrong answers" (e.g. slow sync or end-of-exposure) just for S&G, and the end result remains largely the same.

[Makkuro]

21 hours ago, Photon42 said:

The Q has a leaf shutter - so there is in principle not really a light loss, as long as the flash output largely/completely fits into the timing window given by the shutter speed.

xx|...|...|...|...| flash output

|......................| longer shutter speed

|.......| shorter shutter speed --> misses more than 50% of the flash output

"xx" is the delay caused by the wireless connection.

Profoto already seems to be best game in town for fast wireless transfer, but it cannot beat a cable. So put your flash to a very short duration, which is usually achieved by using a lower power mode AND add use a cable. There are hot shoe adapters with a flash cable contact both for camera and flash.

Does that help?

Yes you are completely correct - that is pretty much my experience, except the delay is so bad the following is a closer representation of what is happening:

xxxxx|...|  Flash Duration, 1/8 (with delay)
xxxxx|..........|  Flash Duration, full power (with delay)

|.....| 1/2000 shutter
|..........| 1/1000 shutter
|....................| 1/50 shutter

So at 1/2000, the sensor can hardly capture ANY light from the flash regardless of power output... 1/1000 can pick up almost all of full-power burst but is best when used with 1/2 power or lower.  However 1/1000 doesn't dim the bright sky enough if we want to shoot wide-open; I still need to bring ND.

And secondly, you are also correct that if we physically connect the flash to the hot shoe, the exposure at 1/2000 improves dramatically.  I haven't filmed that via high-speed camera yet but I suspect the reduction of flash delay is what solves that problem.  Unfortunately, that's really not a practical solution; I can't be having multiple 12+ft flash cables... via splitters... going everywhere as trip hazards.  Especially on-location.  One bystander kicking the flash cord and the Q3 flies off my hand... thanks but no thanks!!  lol

I think at the end of the day we fully understand what the problem is; but I honestly don't know if we just got a defective Q3?  Or I missed a settings?  Therefore, the goal is to seek other Q3 owners who is kind enough to try to replicate my issue.  If this DOESN'T happen with YOUR Q3, I need to call Leica and get an RMA...  But if this happens to ALL of your Q3, then maybe we need to sign a petition asking Leica for a shutter-delay setting in their Flash menu...

Thanks!!

 

[Photon42]

I think this is simply physics - the wireless trigger delay at some point introduces a problem.

[luetz]

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Not sure if I fully understand your setup...but I can confirm that the SF C1(wireless transmitter mounted on my Q3) will fire the remote SF 60 flash) at all synch speeds including 1/2000.

[jaapv]

19 hours ago, Makkuro said:

Yes you are completely correct - that is pretty much my experience, except the delay is so bad the following is a closer representation of what is happening:

xxxxx|...|  Flash Duration, 1/8 (with delay)
xxxxx|..........|  Flash Duration, full power (with delay)

|.....| 1/2000 shutter
|..........| 1/1000 shutter
|....................| 1/50 shutter

So at 1/2000, the sensor can hardly capture ANY light from the flash regardless of power output... 1/1000 can pick up almost all of full-power burst but is best when used with 1/2 power or lower.  However 1/1000 doesn't dim the bright sky enough if we want to shoot wide-open; I still need to bring ND.

And secondly, you are also correct that if we physically connect the flash to the hot shoe, the exposure at 1/2000 improves dramatically.  I haven't filmed that via high-speed camera yet but I suspect the reduction of flash delay is what solves that problem.  Unfortunately, that's really not a practical solution; I can't be having multiple 12+ft flash cables... via splitters... going everywhere as trip hazards.  Especially on-location.  One bystander kicking the flash cord and the Q3 flies off my hand... thanks but no thanks!!  lol

I think at the end of the day we fully understand what the problem is; but I honestly don't know if we just got a defective Q3?  Or I missed a settings?  Therefore, the goal is to seek other Q3 owners who is kind enough to try to replicate my issue.  If this DOESN'T happen with YOUR Q3, I need to call Leica and get an RMA...  But if this happens to ALL of your Q3, then maybe we need to sign a petition asking Leica for a shutter-delay setting in their Flash menu...

Thanks!!

 

If the camera works properly in all other respects it is highly unlikely that this is an individual camera defect. 

[Makkuro]

On 11/7/2024 at 7:01 PM, luetz said:

 

 

Not sure if I fully understand your setup...but I can confirm that the SF C1(wireless transmitter mounted on my Q3) will fire the remote SF 60 flash) at all synch speeds including 1/2000.

Ok that's good to know!!  Could you tested the exposure at 1/2000 compare to 1/1000 using the SF C1?  Are you getting correct exposure on all shutter speeds?  The Profoto wireless transmitter mounted on my Q3 will fire the remote A2 flash at all sync speeds including 1/2000 as well, but the flash fires at the wrong time resulting in underexposed images.

Thanks!!

[Robert Ardinger]

I use Profoto flashes, mainly with Nikon cameras and have the dedicated Nikon wireless "Connect" (looks like the little black circle transmitter seen on the Q3 in the OP's picture) and the Nikon "Connect Pro" (a larger unit with a rectangular screen and several buttons).  

When I bought my Q3 I looked into what Profoto had for compatible flash and flash transmitters and only found the "Connect Pro" with listed dedicated Leica compatibility (which I purchased).  The simpler "Connect" unit is available for several brands (including Panasonic) but as far as I could find, there is not a "Connect" version with listed Leica compatibility.  The A10 speedlight is listed as having dedicated versions for Nikon, Canon, Sony and Fuji but not Leica. The A2 (used in the OP's example) only works with a transmitter and itself is not camera brand dedicated.

I know that there can be compatibility with mixing flash units and camera brands even if not "officially" listed but do not know which "other branded" units might fully work with a Q3.  

I wondered what the listed dedicated brand of "Connect" unit was used in the OP's tests.  

I did a (very) simple test with my Q3 with the dedicated Leica "Connect Pro" and it syncs at all shutter speeds, including 1/2000 with ISO and aperture fixed and the exposures seems similar.  Could the issue be in the version of the transmitter that was used?  Would switching to the listed dedicated "Connect Pro" make a difference?

Edited November 10, 2024 by Robert Ardinger

[luetz]

3 hours ago, Makkuro said:

Ok that's good to know!!  Could you tested the exposure at 1/2000 compare to 1/1000 using the SF C1?  Are you getting correct exposure on all shutter speeds?  The Profoto wireless transmitter mounted on my Q3 will fire the remote A2 flash at all sync speeds including 1/2000 as well, but the flash fires at the wrong time resulting in underexposed images.

Thanks!!

Yes, I experience the same issue.  At 1/2000 the subject is almost black.  At 1/1000 it is much closer to correct exposure and @ 1/500 ...(right on).  After removing the SF C1 and mounting the SF60 directly to hot shoe all synch speeds (including 1/2000) produce correct exposure).  Keep us posted if you find an "electronic trigger" that might solve the delay.

 

 

 

[Robert Ardinger]

Bit of an update.  While my Q3 syncs at 1/2000 (with the Leica version of the Profoto "Connect Pro") the image is about 1 stop underexposed (histogram is shifted a bit to the left).  Images from 1/60 to 1/1000 all look similar with similar histograms (fixed ISO, same aperture and Profoto A2 flash output set at "2" in manual mode).  Tried it again and got 1/2000 to look about the same as the rest by increasing flash power to "3" (one stop).  I do not have a listed-to-be-dedicated-for-Leica hot shoe mounted speedlight to see if there would be a similar result at 1/2000 speed with the flash directly mounted (my A10s are dedicated for Nikon).

[Makkuro]

10 hours ago, luetz said:

Yes, I experience the same issue.  At 1/2000 the subject is almost black.  At 1/1000 it is much closer to correct exposure and @ 1/500 ...(right on).  After removing the SF C1 and mounting the SF60 directly to hot shoe all synch speeds (including 1/2000) produce correct exposure).  Keep us posted if you find an "electronic trigger" that might solve the delay.

 

 

 

Thanks for the update!! At least it seems like the problem is not with the Q3 but with the flash trigger "wireless delay"...  I will keep digging!!

[Makkuro]

6 hours ago, Robert Ardinger said:

Bit of an update.  While my Q3 syncs at 1/2000 (with the Leica version of the Profoto "Connect Pro") the image is about 1 stop underexposed (histogram is shifted a bit to the left).  Images from 1/60 to 1/1000 all look similar with similar histograms (fixed ISO, same aperture and Profoto A2 flash output set at "2" in manual mode).  Tried it again and got 1/2000 to look about the same as the rest by increasing flash power to "3" (one stop).  I do not have a listed-to-be-dedicated-for-Leica hot shoe mounted speedlight to see if there would be a similar result at 1/2000 speed with the flash directly mounted (my A10s are dedicated for Nikon).

Thank you again for your help with the test!  Quick clarification - our "Connect" (mini hockey puck) is indeed for Nikon as well; since the center pin on all hot shoes functions the same (legacy from before the TTL days), in theory as long as the transmitter is in "manual" mode it should work across all brands regardless of what the transmitter was designed for.  Basically, since we rarely use TTL anyway, I was hoping we can save that $400 from buying a Connect Pro.  However, if Nikon and Leica triggers have different timings... then it may explain what I was running into?

By the way can you do me one more favor?  At power setting 3, you are only using 1/128 of the A2's output and the flash duration would be very short... could you test the exposure difference between 1/500, 1000, and 2000 at full-power?  Set ISO manually to 50 / bounce the A2 / reduce aperture (or combination of all)... and photograph something inside a relatively dim room so ambient lights doesn't affect perceived exposure?  Basically, once you've figured out where to bounce the A2 to get correct exposure at full power and 1/500 shutter, without changing anything else, take 2 more photos: one at 1/1000 and one at 1/2000.  You should see a slight exposure drop going from 500 to 1000 (because the shutter duration even at 1/1000 is now shorter than t/0.1), and at 1/2000 the exposure difference will be fairly pronounce (~1 stop difference).  Simply by looking at the histogram, how much flash did you actually lose between 500->1000 and 1000->2000?  Especially from 1/1000 to 1/2000...

Thanks!

 

 

[Robert Ardinger]

Happy to help.  Q3, Leica dedicated "Connect Pro", ISO 50, A2 at "10", F/5.6 (ambient exposure without flash is near black at 1/500 - 1/2000, very dim room light).  All 3 shutter speeds synced but some loss of light at 1/1000 and a 2+ (near 3) stop loss at 1/2000.  

Did see this in the Q3 manual:  "• Studio flash systems may have a very long flash firing duration. It may therefore be advantageous to select a slower shutter speed than 1⁄200s when using such a system. The same applies for RF-controlled flash firing for so-called “off-camera” flashes, as the transmission time may cause a delay."

[Makkuro]

Ok just received my Connect Pro and ran some test... unfortunately no improvements.  😭  Here are thumbnails of my test shots:

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In fact, at 1/2000 of a second the ConnectPro is very tiny little bit DARKER than the cheaper Connect, but since the Connect is a Nikon model running in Manual mode, as soon as I turn on the X-Sync function in the Connect Pro I got a little of the light back.  Nonetheless the light loss makes it unusable.

I could post the DNG file if anyone wants to see them, but once "normalized" these are the light loss compare to 1/250 shutter:

At 1 / 500:  -0.50 Stop
At 1/1000:  -1.75 Stop
At 1/2000:  -4.65 Stop

All photos taken with manual white balance, 50 ISO, F2, and flash at full-power.  The only thing changed is the shutter speed.  So I am definitely looking at massive shutter sync issue here... since the A2 claims 1/1200 t0.5 time, if everything is "timed" correctly I should be loosing LESS than 0.5 stop of light at 1/1000, not the measured -1.75 stops loss...

Looks like I either need to keep looking / change system, or go back to ND filters...

[Makkuro]

On 11/11/2024 at 1:44 AM, Robert Ardinger said:

Did see this in the Q3 manual:  "• Studio flash systems may have a very long flash firing duration. It may therefore be advantageous to select a slower shutter speed than 1⁄200s when using such a system. The same applies for RF-controlled flash firing for so-called “off-camera” flashes, as the transmission time may cause a delay."

 

Ohhhhh yeah I am terrible about reading manuals... so they are aware of the wireless flash delays.  That confirms why if I mount a GodOx V1Pro directly on the hot shoe, I get a LOT more light at 1/2000...  Thanks for looking it up!!

Did the manual hint on any secret handshake that delays it's shutter opening when using remote flash?  😅