The Leica M11 images out of camera

[Velo-city]

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13 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Hi there - interesting points, I'll just take issue with this one, which rather implies that M users never tried anything else . . . . . we have!

No offence intended to anyone, just my ramblings and thoughts....

Always conscious that, especially on a Leica forum, comments might be taken in a slightly different context, but feel free to object of course!

Edited October 21, 2024 by Velo-city

[jonoslack]

45 minutes ago, Velo-city said:

No offence intended to anyone, just my ramblings and thoughts....

Always conscious that, especially on a Leica forum, comments might be taken in a slightly different context, but feel free to object of course!

No offence - incidentally - in my reports ( https://www.slack.co.uk ) everything is processed in Lightroom, but nothing for more than a minute or so. . . . if that helps

best

[Ray Vonn]

46 minutes ago, Velo-city said:

if Leica had done it first I'd imagine the reception from Leica users would be warmer....

I think you're right there and it's not limited to features first implemented by Leica, one has only to look at the want for these newer features in an M like, for example, image stablilisation as well as EVF amongst newer and older users here (you know, bring it "up to date" with other cameras).  It seems the product is changing over time so you never know, some of the features you mentioned may be incorporated in future M models.  We'll see.

[hdmesa]

7 hours ago, Velo-city said:

No offence intended to anyone, just my ramblings and thoughts....

Always conscious that, especially on a Leica forum, comments might be taken in a slightly different context, but feel free to object of course!

Not offense, just tiresome.

It's almost comical how many new members we get there that do the same thing: come here asking questions, then go to their camera store and try the Leica for few minutes, only to return with some sort of sweeping conclusion about Leica in general. A lot of these instances are simply someone who wanted to come here to make a point under the appearance of being neutral. 

If I didn't know better, I would think this forum is being trolled by AI bots on behalf of a certain person or persons. Pretty easy to set up and just let the bots continue to play the same part over an over.

[JNK100]

38 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Not offense, just tiresome.

It's almost comical how many new members we get there that do the same thing: come here asking questions, then go to their camera store and try the Leica for few minutes, only to return with some sort of sweeping conclusion about Leica in general. A lot of these instances are simply someone who wanted to come here to make a point under the appearance of being neutral. 

If I didn't know better, I would think this forum is being trolled by AI bots on behalf of a certain person or persons. Pretty easy to set up and just let the bots continue to play the same part over an over.

+1

[kiwidad]

On 10/12/2024 at 4:55 PM, don daniel said:

Hardly anyone here dares to show JPGs straight from the M11 camera, simply because hardly anyone is still capable of taking good pictures without post-processing tricks. Additionally, with the M11, the white balance is atrocious.

Hardly who? I guess I can’t be anyone lol Love the SOOC jpegs from my M11. White balance is great unless you involve LEG stage lights but then that screwed with my Fuji too! If you have white balance issues in a situation use the grey card function! It’s amazing!

[kiwidad]

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I might add… white to whose eyes? The is almost 500K difference between my left and right and the white opinions are almost worse than clinical pixel peepers! We like it warn. We like it cool. Whose white is correct? ‘Blad white? Sony white? Nikon white or Leica white. We could thrown in lens brands too with difference coatings learning in different directions. It seems the days of getting it right in camera are disappearing! I see the Internationm Leica Society had a webinar in photoshop! SMH

Edited October 22, 2024 by kiwidad

[username]

On 10/10/2024 at 2:07 PM, Velo-city said:

New to the forum, interested in maybe trying an M10-P/R or M11, so have been looking through these image threads with interest.

My initial reaction was that most look very nice, but one question - presumably these aren't 'straight out of camera' but processed?  In which case the images are no less beautiful but doesn't give the me the info I was hoping for.

Apologies if it's not OK to add questions here (rather than images).  Please do delete if thats the case, and perhaps point me to the best place! 

Thank you for this thread - I'm in a very similar situation as you are -

would also love to see some unedited pics from the M11 (and M10-R) 🙂

If any of you are willing to share that'd be much appreciated!

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, username said:

Thank you for this thread - I'm in a very similar situation as you are -

would also love to see some unedited pics from the M11 (and M10-R) 🙂

If any of you are willing to share that'd be much appreciated!

Theses cameras have been out for years. Google that you want RAW files for either one, which will provide links to sample RAW files for download from DPR.

[username]

On 10/13/2024 at 4:00 PM, don daniel said:

Let's share a few unedited JPGs from the M11. It's not like it wouldn't be possible

Thank you for these!

Nice shots by the way, Barcelona is definitely on my bucket list 👍

[Velo-city]

23 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Not offense, just tiresome.

It's almost comical how many new members we get there that do the same thing: come here asking questions, then go to their camera store and try the Leica for few minutes, only to return with some sort of sweeping conclusion about Leica in general. A lot of these instances are simply someone who wanted to come here to make a point under the appearance of being neutral. 

If I didn't know better, I would think this forum is being trolled by AI bots on behalf of a certain person or persons. Pretty easy to set up and just let the bots continue to play the same part over an over.

From the other side of the fence reading many posts on this forum, it seems like some long-term Leica users can tend to come to sweeping conclusions about people based on the few snippets of information they give in forum posts.  There's an air of superiority displayed, particularly when there are reservations/concerns voiced. 

In my case, conclusions about the brand are not made up from a quick visit to a store, it just forms part of an overall opinion.  Some of us have done countless weeks/months of research before hitting this forum with questions, and have bought expensive goods from many brands in the past - cameras included.  You get a feel for things.  I was quite interested in trying and M and we have another two Leica's in the house (one of which really is just a rebadged Panasonic).  Leica definitely has a whiff of a luxury goods brand, and some of the things they do really play to this - it's owned by two investment groups for a start.  So to me, the store interaction matters.  The firmware not working for everyone two years after release matters.  Big delays for repairs (including under warranty) matter. A magenta tint matters.  All of this has come from research, and actually most confirmed by Leica themselves during our conversation.  In my case, I'm still interested, and may still buy one, but I'm glad I did my research, and this forum (among others) has mostly been very helpful.

I think new users turn up here because it's a Leica forum and they're looking for info on Leicas from Leica users   Once you start digging for more detailed information, this website comes up. Whether AI bots troll these forums is beyond my knowledge - can't see who would gain from that but they do seem to be everywhere.

 

Edited October 22, 2024 by Velo-city

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, Velo-city said:

From the other side of the fence reading many posts on this forum, it seems like some long-term Leica users can tend to come to sweeping conclusions about people based on the few snippets of information they give in forum posts.  There's an air of superiority displayed, particularly when there are reservations/concerns voiced. 

In my case, conclusions about the brand are not made up from a quick visit to a store, it just forms part of an overall opinion.  Some of us have done countless weeks/months of research before hitting this forum with questions, and have bought expensive goods from many brands in the past - cameras included.  You get a feel for things.  I was quite interested in trying and M and we have another two Leica's in the house (one of which really is just a rebadged Panasonic).  Leica definitely has a whiff of a luxury goods brand, and some of the things they do really play to this - it's owned by two investment groups for a start.  So to me, the store interaction matters.  The firmware not working for everyone two years after release matters.  Big delays for repairs (including under warranty) matter. A magenta tint matters.  All of this has come from research, and actually most confirmed by Leica themselves during our conversation.  In my case, I'm still interested, and may still buy one, but I'm glad I did my research, and this forum (among others) has mostly been very helpful.

I think new users turn up here because it's a Leica forum and they're looking for info on Leicas from Leica users   Once you start digging for more detailed information, this website comes up. Whether AI bots troll these forums is beyond my knowledge - can't see who would gain from that but they do seem to be everywhere.

 

Firmware for 2.1.3 is extremely stable for the vast majority of us it seems. Trust me, I was here since the M11 release. I think I saw at one time I had the second highest post count in the main M11 freeze issues thread. I've had five copies of the M11. I had an M11M. I now have the M11-D. My M and D are perfect under 2.1.3. The remaining issues you're reading about here with 2.1.3 are outliers. If truly large issues were still plaguing the M11, you'd have all of us screaming about it in the long-running M11 freeze thread, which had now fallen onto page 2 of the forum. We've all largely gone silent there with regard to issues. 

Magenta tint has been discovered to be a factory calibration issue. Every M11 gets a different calibration based on the sensor, but Leica sometimes doesn't get that right. You can send it in to Leica to have the white balance tint bias altered to your preference if needed. My M11-D has nearly perfect auto white balance and NO MAGENTA TINT. Zero.

[don daniel]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb kiwidad:

Hardly who? I guess I can’t be anyone lol Love the SOOC jpegs from my M11. White balance is great unless you involve LEG stage lights but then that screwed with my Fuji too! If you have white balance issues in a situation use the grey card function! It’s amazing!

Well, just show some. No editing, no cropping, no adjusting of white balance or anything in post. JPG out of cam. But you are right, I use the grey card function extensively, even in normal daylight. 

[JoshuaR]

On 10/22/2024 at 1:07 PM, hdmesa said:

Firmware for 2.1.3 is extremely stable for the vast majority of us it seems. Trust me, I was here since the M11 release. I think I saw at one time I had the second highest post count in the main M11 freeze issues thread. I've had five copies of the M11. I had an M11M. I now have the M11-D. My M and D are perfect under 2.1.3. The remaining issues you're reading about here with 2.1.3 are outliers. If truly large issues were still plaguing the M11, you'd have all of us screaming about it in the long-running M11 freeze thread, which had now fallen onto page 2 of the forum. We've all largely gone silent there with regard to issues. 

Magenta tint has been discovered to be a factory calibration issue. Every M11 gets a different calibration based on the sensor, but Leica sometimes doesn't get that right. You can send it in to Leica to have the white balance tint bias altered to your preference if needed. My M11-D has nearly perfect auto white balance and NO MAGENTA TINT. Zero.

@hdmesa, this is really good to hear. I'm seriously considering trading in my M10-R, M10M, and perhaps even SL2-S for an M11-D. I'd noticed that the big freeze thread has essentially gone dormant and am finding it reassuring.

@Velo-city, I think your approach to Leica is exactly right. I came to Leica after years  and years shooting other brands. I was genuinely put off by the 'luxury' vibe but also attracted to the cameras for various reasons (size, simplicity, lens character, and especially all-manual operation). The amount of money involved really concerned me, especially given repair costs and wait times. So I went very very slowly. I rented a Q2, and was convinced by it to sell much of my Fuji gear to buy one. But my real interest was in the M system. I rented an M240 and hated using it. But, after sending it back, I started thinking about the experience and realized that I'd been approaching rangefinder photography wrong. I bought a beat-up M2, and used it extensively for 18 months with Voigtlander lenses. By the end of that period I was totally convinced that the system, despite all its eccentricities, was perfect for me. At that point, I bought an M10, and I now have a large M kit. From time to time I dabble in autofocus or modern mirrorless, but it's clear to me that the M system will be my permanent home.

I think it's impossible to deny that in this day and age M cameras are seriously quirky. I can still remember looking through the M240 viewfinder, seeing the little red indicators, and laughing in disbelief: I hadn't thought that cameras like this were still being made. My feeling is that it's normal and rational for most photographers to try these cameras and say 'WTF.' It really depends on whether the particular design of the system matches your shooting style. By the same token, I don't think that Leica is out of touch or uncertain about itself. They simply know their customers, who have chosen the M system because its constraints fit their way of shooting exactly. 

Speaking for myself, the key steps to evaluating the M system for my own photography were (1) setting aside the luxury vibe and all that comes with it so that (2) I could try the cameras for myself over an extended period and find out whether my intuitions about them were correct.

[Velo-city]

On 10/13/2024 at 2:17 PM, JoshuaRothman said:

@Velo-city, one idea is to go to the DPReview sample gallery for the M11—they let you download both JPEG and RAW versions of the images. That way you can bring the RAWs into your editor of choice and see what's possible. The photos they offer aren't always the best, but they usually give you a good range of subjects:

https://www.dpreview.com/sample-galleries/5902531902/leica-m11-sample-gallery/9769738798

IMO, there's nothing nonsensical about wanting to look at RAW / unprocessed images. I do this all the time when I'm contemplating a new body or lens. I want to see how much latitude there is in post. Not a complicated idea. 

Just to say thanks again for the dpreview tip - I've used it in the past but never paid attention to the galleries or the fact they're downloadable with the RAW.  I've now had a chance to download a selection from M10, M10-R, and M11 and had a play in LR.

Yes, an extended test would be the way.  Sadly I think the only realistic plan is to buy one, and with the used prices so high it's still quite an investment.  A used M11 somehow seems better 'value' than an M10-R as they're both priced pretty similarly (close enough to make the R seem 'expensive'), maybe because of the reported issues. An M10 in reasonable condition even from a dealer can be had for a good price, but I'm not sure I want to go that far back in the line, not coming from an X100 and now Q3 (not that its mine but I've been getting a little time on it).  Things like USBC actually have quite a bit of value for me as I travel a fair bit and just love that about my X100, the thought of carrying a specific battery charger on top of everything else just seems so dated now.  Then on top I'd need a lens, and have decided I'd go Voigtlander if I needed to save money (which I would on an 11 body), or get an older summicron for the 10/R. 

And I may just do a sideways step to a Hasselblad, on a technology and colour science level alone the latest are pulling me in.  But it's of course BIG and so I'd travel with it less. Now if they made a full-frame compact (more like an M) but with the same tech as the MF cameras, I'd probably already have it!

Interested to hear you rented one (a Q anyway) - I didn't think that would be a possibility....

Edited October 24, 2024 by Velo-city

[EJS73]

I've used the M11 since a few months after it was introduced, and almost always shoot JPG images. Mostly it's about the white balance, and experimenting/learning when the auto white balance needs a helping hand. DNGs may provide post processing latitude but to me, the fun is in getting a good picture without any pp at all. 

[Velo-city]

I think if I hadn’t read @JoshuaRothman’s post above for the second time, my M11 would probably already be for sale….. was definitely good to get that more balanced outlook.

OK just have to try and keep an open mind and use properly for a more extended period before commenting more……

Edited November 3, 2024 by Velo-city

[Derbyshire Man]

On 10/24/2024 at 6:47 PM, JoshuaRothman said:

@hdmesa, this is really good to hear. I'm seriously considering trading in my M10-R, M10M, and perhaps even SL2-S for an M11-D. I'd noticed that the big freeze thread has essentially gone dormant and am finding it reassuring.

@Velo-city, I think your approach to Leica is exactly right. I came to Leica after years  and years shooting other brands. I was genuinely put off by the 'luxury' vibe but also attracted to the cameras for various reasons (size, simplicity, lens character, and especially all-manual operation). The amount of money involved really concerned me, especially given repair costs and wait times. So I went very very slowly. I rented a Q2, and was convinced by it to sell much of my Fuji gear to buy one. But my real interest was in the M system. I rented an M240 and hated using it. But, after sending it back, I started thinking about the experience and realized that I'd been approaching rangefinder photography wrong. I bought a beat-up M2, and used it extensively for 18 months with Voigtlander lenses. By the end of that period I was totally convinced that the system, despite all its eccentricities, was perfect for me. At that point, I bought an M10, and I now have a large M kit. From time to time I dabble in autofocus or modern mirrorless, but it's clear to me that the M system will be my permanent home.

I think it's impossible to deny that in this day and age M cameras are seriously quirky. I can still remember looking through the M240 viewfinder, seeing the little red indicators, and laughing in disbelief: I hadn't thought that cameras like this were still being made. My feeling is that it's normal and rational for most photographers to try these cameras and say 'WTF.' It really depends on whether the particular design of the system matches your shooting style. By the same token, I don't think that Leica is out of touch or uncertain about itself. They simply know their customers, who have chosen the M system because its constraints fit their way of shooting exactly. 

Speaking for myself, the key steps to evaluating the M system for my own photography were (1) setting aside the luxury vibe and all that comes with it so that (2) I could try the cameras for myself over an extended period and find out whether my intuitions about them were correct.

The only bit that irks me about the M series is the viewfinder, a more detailed approach to exposure information (like a scale so that you have a sense of how far out you are) and preferably permanent set or auto selected shutter speed would do it, while I don’t need a histogram it’s not 1979 either! I want to be able to keep my eye on the viewfinder and control the camera fully without surprises.

For @Velo-city I have a Fuji I X100VI and since I got the M’s I’ve shot about 5-10,000 images as a guess and about 30 have been on the Fuji. That tells you what I prefer to use!

Edited November 3, 2024 by Derbyshire Man

[Mahesh]

@JoshuaRothman "WTF" 😂 

What you say is absolutely right, which is why after having bought m240 twice, M10 twice, m10p once and m10r once and selling them all, I'm about to buy an M11-d or m11-p (debating between the two).

I've had Sony and Fuji cameras mostly during this period and I liked and loved them too.

There are serious quirks but we still like Leica Because of whatever it is. For some it is, legacy from film, for some it is "Leica look" (debatable to others), for some it is a small system with fabulous jewel like lenses, for others it might just be an expensive accessory that they can afford (nothing wrong with that either)

 

 

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Velo-city]

3 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

The only bit that irks me about the M series is the viewfinder, a more detailed approach to exposure information (like a scale so that you have a sense of how far out you are) and preferably permanent set or auto selected shutter speed would do it, while I don’t need a histogram it’s not 1979 either! I want to be able to keep my eye on the viewfinder and control the camera fully without surprises.

For @Velo-city I have a Fuji I X100VI and since I got the M’s I’ve shot about 5-10,000 images as a guess and about 30 have been on the Fuji. That tells you what I prefer to use!

Well, I definitely hope I end up in your camp @Derbyshire Man!

i like so much about my x100v, I’d say it’s an incredible camera for the money. But I don’t love the images that come out of it - they’re not terrible but there’s a harshness which I put down to the apsc (since it’s my first non full frame camera in decades) but could be other factors. But I certainly enjoy using it. 
 

The Leica viewfinder not only seems ancient, but to be honest my initial reaction is it’s small,  dark and uncomfortable. Comparing the x100v in optical mode, the mamiya 7ii and the Leica, the Leica is by far the worst viewfinder. I had to get them all out to check my eyes hadn’t deteriorated overnight! It’s like looking through an ND. That’s just one if a few obvious things I wasn’t overjoyed with picking it up. 
 

Anyway I said I wouldn’t say more until I’ve used it for at least a while so I’ll shut up there. Its an experiment that I want to give a proper chance of success, and ultimately will be what comes out of it as well as how it feels. 

Actually one quick question to save me asking in the firmware section, it didn’t come with the latest. Would you update or leave? Usually I’d update any device but the firmware topic wasn’t reassuring reading…..

 

As a footnote, I’m also quite liking the Q3 now I’ve used it more, but still early days there too. But my hunch is if an M12 is released soon, and knowing my luck it will, and has either EVF or hybrid display, I’ll trade in the 11 and go straight to that.

Edited November 3, 2024 by Velo-city