Leica M11-D: The camera without a display enters the next round

[LocalHero1953]

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1 hour ago, algrove said:

So until Leica corrects this issue what do I do?

I know it's an outlandish solution, but: don't buy it?

[jonoslack]

38 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I know it's an outlandish solution, but: don't buy it?

A better solution would be to delete the images in Fotos! 

[Photoworks]

You just need to carry another M11 to format the card, simple.

and don't use internal memory.

[maxpower]

I gotta wonder, how many people are actually formatting (or deleting) their SD cards and/or internal storage on the go when they don't have access to their computer or phone. This can't be this big of a deal, can it? 

As for the theme of reliance of the FOTOS app / phone; from what I've seen you can use this camera without connecting it to your phone. You just have to accept the default settings (which are documented in the quick start guide, I believe). But if they made it even simpler, for example no connectivity (like M60, M Typ 262) you are just stuck with the defaults the camera came with as well. It's not like it becomes a very expensive paper weight without the app. So it makes me wonder, what do people want instead if this isn't good enough? Remove connectivity so you aren't tempted by changing settings not provided by the physical buttons/wheels? Should they have added more switches, buttons and dials so you can change metering, drive mode, white balance, etc without needing the app? Or instead of more physical controls, more complicated timed button press combinations than the M11-D already has? 

I'm just really curious, what makes everyone here happy? Seems like a mission impossible. 

Luckily all of these heated discussions have not swayed my own interest and I'm excited to try one out and potentially purchase one later this week. 

[algrove]

4 hours ago, jonoslack said:

A better solution would be to delete the images in Fotos! 

Thanks Jono.

Did you ever have discussions about offering the possibility of being able to format both memory types via the Foto app.

Why make this camera so basic that its hard to use it like any other M11 from a digital standpoint?

Edited September 16, 2024 by algrove

[IkarusJohn]

Perhaps my approach of just using AWB is more than a little lazy, but I don’t really see it as worse than any other and it’s a reasonable starting point.  It also removes another step in taking a photo (which is why I use an M10-D) - checking the light to see if it has changed since my last shot.  Sure, starting with 5,700K gives the same starting point, but the light does tend to change, even shooting outdoors (here, anyway), so it will need to be changed in post anyway.  I know myself well enough to know I really couldn’t be bothered - taking the lens cap off is often more than I can remember to do.

Perhaps a solution would be to assign the function key to white balance.  It could, for example, be for white balance setting using a white balance card (something I used to do with the M9), or it could scroll through kelvin settings - daylight, cloudy, shade, indoors etc, or you could assign it.  For me, I would rather have a fn button assigned than have to go to Fotos to adjust white balance every time the light changed - the light falling on your subject, that is, which is where your white balance reading needs to be taken.

I make the last point as I see this as much like light reading - do you expose for highlights, matrix, centre-weighted, spot or do you chose your exposure manually for everything, and adjust in post?  I have become accustomed to Leica’s off the shutter centre weighting because I understand what that will do, and I use auto-white balance because, like Jono, I accept that colour is not a fixed or certain concept, and I will usually adjust it in every image to what I like.  

Other routes may vary.

[Derbyshire Man]

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Lots of discussion around WB. It seems to me that the conceptual starting point of the M11D is that it is a digital camera recreating being a film camera. Film comes with a number of restrictions, one of which is that it has a fixed WB. Many of us have loaded rolls of daylight/tungsten over the years, the fixed daylight meant that sunshine light was warmer, shade and shadow colder. Giving important visual cues in the images.

Taking that to the M11D means setting the camera for a session to a fixed WB, most probably daylight. And leaving it there! Take a photo at the beginning of a particular shoot of something white/mid grey, my dad was a new cameraman and simply used a handy piece of paper/something white. Use that in post if needed (I would never bother as I never shoot anything which is going to be that colour critical that I can't eyeball it).

Some situations are much more challenging such as mixed indoor light. This is also challenging using film obviously, the same techniques can be applied or if you can't face it, in this unusual situation use AWB (yes you will need to use Fotos), alternatively leave on daylight and select a different WB in LR/P1/etc.

My biggest frustration when using film was that it was always colour when I wanted monochrome and vice versa, next was that it was HP4 when I wanted it to be Max 3200, both of these are solved with all modern cameras including the M11D. I liked that when indoor under tungsten it looked like it. Obviously the spectrum of more modern lights like incandescent and LED can be more difficult.

In summary, in purchasing a camera which aims to mirror the usage of film it strikes me that you are getting what you have just paid for! Of course I have no skin in the game;-)

Edited September 17, 2024 by Derbyshire Man

[Bikie John]

19 hours ago, newtoleica said:

My fantasy would be a ‘enhanced’ a la carte programme. Take your pick of 1. Sensor (colour/mono) 2. Body type (D, P, plain), 3. metering (sensor / off curtain), VF magnification (or EVF), finish and branding options. Wouldnt THAT be grand…. 😁🤣

Sounds good, but I think you mean "Wouldn't THAT be 30 grand..." 🤣

John

[hdmesa]

On 9/16/2024 at 7:02 AM, Smudgerer said:

Or a D Monochrom, wouldn't that be grand!

Too easy to clip the highlights. The Mono is the one camera where checking the histogram can be critical to getting the optimal exposure. Sure you can underexpose all your shots by 2 or 3 stops, but then you’re losing light on shots that didn’t need it.

Leica could fix this with a true highlight weighted metering that allowed zero clipped highlights except for specular highlights. The current highlight metering is not aggressive enough for mono. Nikon’s highlight weighted metering would be the reference — it is very aggressive at protecting the highlights.

 

[jonoslack]

16 hours ago, algrove said:

Thanks Jono.

Did you ever have discussions about offering the possibility of being able to format both memory types via the Foto app.

Why make this camera so basic that its hard to use it like any other M11 from a digital standpoint?

We did discuss it - but I'm in agreement that it isn't necessary, and the whole point of the camera is that it's basic, but it isn't hard to use, unless you want to use it as if it wasn't basic!

best

Jono

[Smudgerer]

37 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Too easy to clip the highlights. The Mono is the one camera where checking the histogram can be critical to getting the optimal exposure. Sure you can underexpose all your shots by 2 or 3 stops, but then you’re losing light on shots that didn’t need it.

Leica could fix this with a true highlight weighted metering that allowed zero clipped highlights except for specular highlights. The current highlight metering is not aggressive enough for mono. Nikon’s highlight weighted metering would be the reference — it is very aggressive at protecting the highlights.

 

Interesting. thank you.......I've never had a clipping problem with my M10-M, ( I rarely check histograms ), so why would you think it would be different with the M11-D, metering differences between the two cameras?

[Mahesh]

58 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

We did discuss it - but I'm in agreement that it isn't necessary, and the whole point of the camera is that it's basic, but it isn't hard to use, unless you want to use it as if it wasn't basic!

best

Jono

The problem is one person's "essentials" is not the same as other persons. I for example, don't think having 60MP is essentials for a camera. I would be happy with 18MP or even 12 MP (Which Sony A7S series and ZV-E1 have). Same with content authentication. 

If Leica produce a new D model with a CCD sensor like M9, I would be more than happy. 

I absolutely adore the looks and concept of M11-D. However, I am still undecided with M11-D only because I feel 1) I will be paying for 60MP that I don't need. 2) There is a shadow of freezing issues which Leica hasn't been really open about. 3) Magenta cast- I see that on some pictures from M11s, didn't see on M11-P which I had hired from Leica (thank you). I know people will say it is an easy fix. But really? M10-R didn't have it and I cannot justify this just because some films have those. 

With regards to formatting, I am not bothered. I am not the one formatting the card in camera all the time. In fact I never did that in any of my Sonys.

Edited September 17, 2024 by Mahesh

[jonoslack]

30 minutes ago, Mahesh said:

The problem is one person's "essentials" is not the same as other persons. I for example, don't think having 60MP is essentials for a camera. I would be happy with 18MP or even 12 MP (Which Sony A7S series and ZV-E1 have). Same with content authentication. 

If Leica produce a new D model with a CCD sensor like M9, I would be more than happy. 

I absolutely adore the looks and concept of M11-D. However, I am still undecided with M11-D only because I feel 1) I will be paying for 60MP that I don't need. 2) There is a shadow of freezing issues which Leica hasn't been really open about. 3) Magenta cast- I see that on some pictures from M11s, didn't see on M11-P which I had hired from Leica (thank you). I know people will say it is an easy fix. But really? M10-R didn't have it and I cannot justify this just because some films have those. 

With regards to formatting, I am not bothered. I am not the one formatting the card in camera all the time. In fact I never did that in any of my Sonys.

Hi There to your points (all reasonable)

1) 60mp is really a joy when you get used to it -  it makes it so much easier to go out with one lens in the knowledge that you can crop if you need to. I knew it was a bad move when they moved from 24-48mp . . .  until I tested the M10-R!

2) The freezing issue was extremely complex, Leica have been open about it as far as they could be - a press release isn't really the way to do this. They have had a whole team on the matter and a whole other (independent) team doing the testing. . . . . I'm part of that team and although it's hard to prove that something is definitively fixed, none of us has freezing issues any more. Of course that doesn't mean that the camera can't freeze, but it's now very rare (certainly less common than the M10!)

3) Different cameras have different colours - personally I love the colours of the M11, and whilst I'm aware of the magenta, I prefer it to the cyan tilt most other cameras seem to have - for one thing, it certainly seems to have the. best skin tones of any of the digital M cameras - if you're disturbed by the skies, then you can change it (I like it). 

I don't suppose this helps, but it might!

All the best

Jono

[Mahesh]

11 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Hi There to your points (all reasonable)

1) 60mp is really a joy when you get used to it -  it makes it so much easier to go out with one lens in the knowledge that you can crop if you need to. I knew it was a bad move when they moved from 24-48mp . . .  until I tested the M10-R!

2) The freezing issue was extremely complex, Leica have been open about it as far as they could be - a press release isn't really the way to do this. They have had a whole team on the matter and a whole other (independent) team doing the testing. . . . . I'm part of that team and although it's hard to prove that something is definitively fixed, none of us has freezing issues any more. Of course that doesn't mean that the camera can't freeze, but it's now very rare (certainly less common than the M10!)

3) Different cameras have different colours - personally I love the colours of the M11, and whilst I'm aware of the magenta, I prefer it to the cyan tilt most other cameras seem to have - for one thing, it certainly seems to have the. best skin tones of any of the digital M cameras - if you're disturbed by the skies, then you can change it (I like it). 

I don't suppose this helps, but it might!

All the best

Jono

Hi Jono, thanks for taking time to respond. I don't expect you to answer but respectfully do not understand/agree with your statement that "although it's hard to prove that something is definitively fixed," 

I work in IT and if there is an issue, it is not going to be fixed unless you have identified the problem and a defined solution to fix it. - the only other solution being hard reset (or hitting your old style TV set so it shows you the picture again!) 

Points 1 and 3 are of personal taste and use case. 

[Photoworks]

9 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

Lots of discussion around WB. It seems to me that the conceptual starting point of the M11D is that it is a digital camera recreating being a film camera. Film comes with a number of restrictions, one of which is that it has a fixed WB. Many of us have loaded rolls of daylight/tungsten over the years, the fixed daylight meant that sunshine light was warmer, shade and shadow colder. Giving important visual cues in the images.

Taking that to the M11D means setting the camera for a session to a fixed WB, most probably daylight. And leaving it there! Take a photo at the beginning of a particular shoot of something white/mid grey, my dad was a new cameraman and simply used a handy piece of paper/something white. Use that in post if needed (I would never bother as I never shoot anything which is going to be that colour critical that I can't eyeball it).

Some situations are much more challenging such as mixed indoor light. This is also challenging using film obviously, the same techniques can be applied or if you can't face it, in this unusual situation use AWB (yes you will need to use Fotos), alternatively leave on daylight and select a different WB in LR/P1/etc.

My biggest frustration when using film was that it was always colour when I wanted monochrome and vice versa, next was that it was HP4 when I wanted it to be Max 3200, both of these are solved with all modern cameras including the M11D. I liked that when indoor under tungsten it looked like it. Obviously the spectrum of more modern lights like incandescent and LED can be more difficult.

In summary, in purchasing a camera which aims to mirror the usage of film it strikes me that you are getting what you have just paid for! Of course I have no skin in the game;-)

Isn't simple.

The Leica M11-D is a camera that goes back to basic photography, just like film.

Just like in the film days, you can get a second M11-D with a different WB, color/BW, or what ever you like

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[Fred Miranda]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

Hi There to your points (all reasonable)

3) Different cameras have different colours - personally I love the colours of the M11, and whilst I'm aware of the magenta, I prefer it to the cyan tilt most other cameras seem to have - for one thing, it certainly seems to have the. best skin tones of any of the digital M cameras - if you're disturbed by the skies, then you can change it (I like it). 

While color casts can affect individual colors, there is a distinction between the camera outputting images with a magenta cast (related to tint) and issues with specific colors like skin tones or sky colors. In my tests, the M11 boasts the most accurate colors compared to any previous M model, with blues, greens, and reds appearing neutral—meaning blues don't have a cyan bias, and reds don't have an orange bias. However, this is subjective, and many prefer the color output of the M9 over the M10 or M11.

The primary issue I notice with the M11 series is a tint bias, where all images have a slight magenta bias instead of being neutral. For instance, a photo of gray asphalt should appear gray, not magenta-gray. I observe this when shooting with my M11, and it usually requires a small adjustment in tint (typically 10 or 12 points towards green in Lightroom) to correct it. This adjustment isn't for fixing the colors but rather for correcting the tint output from the camera. I believe this should be an easy fix for Leica, but perhaps they are receiving feedback from reviewers who assure them everything is fine.

[jonoslack]

2 hours ago, Fred Miranda said:

While color casts can affect individual colors, there is a distinction between the camera outputting images with a magenta cast (related to tint) and issues with specific colors like skin tones or sky colors. In my tests, the M11 boasts the most accurate colors compared to any previous M model, with blues, greens, and reds appearing neutral—meaning blues don't have a cyan bias, and reds don't have an orange bias. However, this is subjective, and many prefer the color output of the M9 over the M10 or M11.

The primary issue I notice with the M11 series is a tint bias, where all images have a slight magenta bias instead of being neutral. For instance, a photo of gray asphalt should appear gray, not magenta-gray. I observe this when shooting with my M11, and it usually requires a small adjustment in tint (typically 10 or 12 points towards green in Lightroom) to correct it. This adjustment isn't for fixing the colors but rather for correcting the tint output from the camera. I believe this should be an easy fix for Leica, but perhaps they are receiving feedback from reviewers who assure them everything is fine.

Hi Fred

Very nicely put (and measured). Leica are very well aware of it, but it's quite a can of works to correct - lots of photographers, probably like you and I have modified their workflow to accommodate this . . . . changing the colour on a camera that's been on the market for a couple of years is not going to be popular for professional photographers who like it and have a proper workflow. . . . . so how to introduce an optional change - and this surely is what it has to be. I think something will happen about this, but clearly it isn't just something to change in the next firmware version

All the best

Jono

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, Fred Miranda said:

While color casts can affect individual colors, there is a distinction between the camera outputting images with a magenta cast (related to tint) and issues with specific colors like skin tones or sky colors. In my tests, the M11 boasts the most accurate colors compared to any previous M model, with blues, greens, and reds appearing neutral—meaning blues don't have a cyan bias, and reds don't have an orange bias. However, this is subjective, and many prefer the color output of the M9 over the M10 or M11.

The primary issue I notice with the M11 series is a tint bias, where all images have a slight magenta bias instead of being neutral. For instance, a photo of gray asphalt should appear gray, not magenta-gray. I observe this when shooting with my M11, and it usually requires a small adjustment in tint (typically 10 or 12 points towards green in Lightroom) to correct it. This adjustment isn't for fixing the colors but rather for correcting the tint output from the camera. I believe this should be an easy fix for Leica, but perhaps they are receiving feedback from reviewers who assure them everything is fine.

 

6 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Hi Fred

Very nicely put (and measured). Leica are very well aware of it, but it's quite a can of works to correct - lots of photographers, probably like you and I have modified their workflow to accommodate this . . . . changing the colour on a camera that's been on the market for a couple of years is not going to be popular for professional photographers who like it and have a proper workflow. . . . . so how to introduce an optional change - and this surely is what it has to be. I think something will happen about this, but clearly it isn't just something to change in the next firmware version

All the best

Jono

Given how aware and often responsive Leica is to strong user feedback, I think they would have fixed the magenta tint bias if they could have. I have a feeling that the issue is the thinner cover glass on the M11. I don’t know if that has caused some near-IR bleed over in some lighting situations or not, but the tint bias sometimes reminds me of the Canon EOS Ra for astro. If not that, it’s got to be something similar at fault — something that gives magenta tint in some bright daylight situations but not in other light. 

But honestly, just letting us have a menu that allows us to dial in a white balance bias would be superb. Fujifilm has a great interface for this that lets you move around the bias as an image overlay.

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[hdmesa]

6 hours ago, Smudgerer said:

Interesting. thank you.......I've never had a clipping problem with my M10-M, ( I rarely check histograms ), so why would you think it would be different with the M11-D, metering differences between the two cameras?

Because you likely don’t accidentally overexpose due to feedback from images in playback or if shooting in live view on the LCD. Any highlight overexposed on a mono sensor is lost forever. Overexposure on a color sensor might still have one color channel with data from which some of the highlights can be recovered.

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[elmars]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Fred Miranda:

I observe this when shooting with my M11, and it usually requires a small adjustment in tint (typically 10 or 12 points towards green in Lightroom) to correct it.

I absolutely agree. Tint should be +12 as a standard for fixed white balance.

vor 7 Stunden schrieb hdmesa:

But honestly, just letting us have a menu that allows us to dial in a white balance bias would be superb. Fujifilm has a great interface for this that lets you move around the bias as an image overlay.

I don't know whether such a major intervention in the firmware is possible. I wouldn't need the Fuji solution either. A choice between two or three options would help a lot. Then you could keep the current standard and everyone would be happy, even those who like the Magentatint and have set up their workflow for it.