A little comparison at 1250 and 1250 pushed. (In C1 4 beta)

[Dan States]

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All the discussion of the capabilities of the M8 at high ISO settings inspired me to shoot off some frames both at 1250, exposed properly (hand held meter) and at 1250, exposed per the in camera meter recommendation. What I found indicates that much of the carping about high ISO performance is really a complaint about the metering on the camera.

 

The M8, like all cameras with basic light meters, will underexpose scenes with lots of specular highlights. Combine this with the tendency of most users to both over sharpen and overcorrect for Luminance noise and you get the famous bands, grain and generally poor reproduction.

 

I've found the best results with the M8 at high ISO occur when I TURN OFF ALL SHARPENING AND LUMINANCE NOISE REDUCTION, and dial the Chroma noise reduction up...sometimes to 100%.

 

The difference between the two shots is only the shutter speed used. I converted the first shot to jpeg without exposure compensation. On the second shot I went with the in-camera meter, which asked for 125th/sec vs 90th on my hand held. I then pushed the exposure about .9 ISO in C1 4 beta to get the images to about the same brightness value.

 

As you can see, pushing an under exposed image drives up the grain dramatically.

 

On both images I set sharpening to zero, luminance control to zero, and chroma control to 100%.

 

I think many users coming from the DSLR world are used to always needing sharpening to get snap in their images. On the M8 additional sharpening only serves to emphasize sensor noise. Turning it off AND dumping Luminance control (ie blur) makes for a film like, natural, sharp image, with noise levels low enough to make a fine quality print at any size. I have NEVER encountered banding noise patterns in images unless I used some combination of sharpening and noise reduction.

 

Best wishes

 

Dan

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[Dan States]

Attached is a color shot that would have required exposure compensation had I used the cameras recommended shutter speed. The message in low light is to think more about our shadows when metering. (Man, colors look weird when you send them to this forum..must be the compression)

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[wparsonsgisnet]

Dan, I looked at the color shot and discovered that I didn't have to start shaving, yet.

 

Would you mind being more specific about where you are making your changes? That is, in the M8, or in C1, or both, and exactly what you are setting.

 

Thanks for your indulgence.

[Dan States]

Everything is done in C1 4. I go to the control screen for sharpening and noise reduction and move the sharpening slider to 0. I move the luminance slider to 0, and the chroma slider to 75 or greater. Combined with a properly exposed file I can print the results to 11x14 with virtually no visible noise on paper, and very little even on the demanding medium of the LCD monitor.

 

I really believe that if we get beyond the work flow habits created by years of work with DSLR's and AA filters and strictly go for results that look natural, with minimal processing of the raw file we'll see the potential of the M8 realized. They just don't need much sharpening (if you are using good lenses). Whatever we are adding is only serving to emphasize the noise patterns, not improve the total image. The luminance control seems to be nothing more than a blur filter to me....useless at any ISO. The luminance noise on the M8 is very "film like" in texture so even at high speeds it does not detract from print quality.

 

DSLR cameras with matrix metering do have an advantage in that they do a better job of thinking about shadows than the M8...Of course, we buy M8's because WE want to do the thinking, right?

 

Best wishes

Dan

[wparsonsgisnet]

Thanks, Dan.

 

I am in C1-LE. I can see the Sharpening and Luminance sliders. Is the color slider in the Noise Reduciton section the same as Chroma, or is there another section for adjustment?

 

tnx.

[Pedro]

Since I read this thread :

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/33338-iso-2500-vs-160-a.html

 

I always avoid using high ISO. Am I missing something?

[jaapv]

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Yes-you are...

[elopezso]

I have the same question as Mr. Parson's.

 

Additionally, I am wondering whether we should always have the settings in C1 as suggested here no matter what the ISO!

 

Thanks, Ed

[barjohn]

Can you give us a 2500 example. I still see significant noise when I try it. Tell us your settings too.

[Dan States]

At ISO values 320 and below I can't see much effect to either luminance or chroma noise reduction because there is very little of either to be found. For that reason I feel once again that turning off NR and sharpening creates the most natural looking file.

 

Certainly the M8 file is the most "pushable" I have used, particularly when shooting at 640 or lower. At 1250 and 2500 the margin for error is much lower, and proper metering is crucial for great quality files...That said, great quality images are there for the making as long as we don't "overcook" the RAW files with combinations of sharpening AND luminance noise reduction that together only create a very digital looking image.

 

I know that some users have been dialing in -2/3 stop compensation as a habit, and at ISO's 320 and under that seems to make sense as a way to protect highlights. For ISO 1250-2500 I plan on trying a +1/3 stop compensation as a way to protect the shadows in the kind of shots that demand very high speeds...typically very high contrast. Hand held meters are fine when you have the time, but in dynamic situations I still think the cameras meter can work as long as you stay mindful of the amount of light you REALLY need.

 

You DON'T have to accept the kind of cross hatch noise patterns that plague many M8 high ISO shots, as long as you give the file enough light from the beginning.

 

Best wishes

Dan

[elopezso]

Dan,

 

So I know I have this correct on C1 v4, I should set sharpening as follows: amount 0,

radius .2, threshold 0 correct or should I set it to the no sharpening preset that will give us amount 0, radius 1.3, threshold 1.0?

 

Additionally, with respect to noise reduction should both luminance & color be set to 0?

 

I think this will help Bill Parsons and myself.

 

Thanks a million

 

Ed

[Dan States]

I set the sharpening slider to zero, the luminance slider to zero, and the chroma slider to 75 or higher.

 

This treatment, combined with proper exposure yields a clean image that prints beautifully.

[elopezso]

Thanks Dan but I do not have a chroma button. Is that the color button or not?

[Dan States]

Yes, that's it! Set color up high and luminance to zero along with sharpening in the "amount" slider. The M8's weakness seems to be color noise, but not sharpness or Luminance noise.

[Dan States]

Here is a shot at 2500, with sharpening and luminance control set to zero, and color noise set to 75. While there is visible grain, it will still print out very well on my R2400. (Sorry, these images are not high art, just quickie test shots to illustrate my experiences)

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