I want Elmarit-SL f/2.8 lenses

[MrFriendly]

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I wanted to try a very compact autofocus lens on my SL cameras, so I decided to order the Sigma 45mm F2.8 DG DN | C lens.  Given its super cheap price, I wasn't expecting much.

The Good:

• super light and very compact.
• all metal construction; even the hood is metal!
• very quick and quiet autofocus.
• very nice clicky aperture ring, and stiff but smooth focus ring.

The Bad:

• wide open, image quality is bad (it's very soft), but I was kind of expecting this.  My plan was to stop it down, and at 5.6 the image quality becomes very acceptable.

The Ugly:

• Sigma's MTF charts are way off.

 

Leica have really spoiled us with their lenses.  I just wish Leica offered compact SL lenses, like Elmarit-SL f/2.8 or something.  I would try the Summicron-SL, but they're still double the length and double the weight of Sigma compact lens.  Carrying SL APO lens becomes tiring very soon, and it's impossible for me to shoot one handed.  I would try the TL lenses at the cost of crop factor, but they don't make those anymore.

Anybody else feels that Leica should make Elmarit-SL lenses?

[Chris Nebard]

I’ve always thought this - and that Leica might be missing a trick in not developing small Elmarit primes for the SL. On the other hand, I suppose they may sell more bodies due to the alternative lenses that are available in L Mount. For me, Sigma fills that Elmarit gap, and very admirably too. But, like you, I’d love to see similar offerings from Leica. I wouldn’t have bought my SL2-S without the availability of the Sigma I-Contemporary DG DN range. I have a Leica SL zoom and I like it, but I enjoy my primes more and the SL Apo lenses are too big for me (I’m never saying never to buying one - they’re obviously outstanding).

Until Leica does what MrFriendly asks, I’ll be mainly using adapted M lenses and my little Sigma Contemporaries. I love using them - and while the 45mm f2.8 is divisive (a Sigma design choice to have that soft glow close up, wide open) I actually love mine. The 24 f3.5 and the 35 f2 are very good performers. 

come on Leica, give Sigma some friendly competition - bring on the small, beautifully engineered, optically brilliant, price competitive SL-Elmarits!

[JoshuaR]

I agree very much. I'm new to the SL system (I mainly use M) and have been pretty flummoxed by the lens choices. I thought I'd be into an APO prime but I'm wary of spending that much money for a lens that big. I'd really like equivalents of Fuji's "Fujicrons"—those are small 35mm, 50mm, and 75mm weather-resistant primes with aperture rings, autofocus, and an f/2 aperture. So far the Sigma DG DN lenses are filing the gap for me; I didn't like the 45 but do like the 35 and will probably pick up the 24 and 65 or 90. But I'd love first-party lenses where I can feel that I "own the best" (like a true LEICAMAN).

@Chris Nebard, have you used the Panasonic f/1l.8 primes, or the Leica versions—the non-APO SL Summicrons? Do you have a preference for the Sigma lenses because of the optics or design or any other reasons? I'd really appreciate any insights into the world of not-huge L-mount lenses.... My overall sense is that there's little to be gained by trying the Leica non-APO Summicrons if I'm already happy with the Sigma lenses.

[adan]

Leica needs to earn about the same amount from every lens they build - because the costs will be about the same (machining/assembling x-amount of metal, and grinding x-amount of glass, at German labor costs). A Leica-built Elmarit-SL might** be smaller - but it will not be much less expensive than a APO-Summicron-SL.

That is partly why Leica has abandoned most Elmarits in the M-line as well (only the 28 ASPH remains in the lineup) - and dumped the f/2.5 Summarits. Leica sells the big f/1.4 lenses for megabucks - or all you get is an Elmar (21 or 90). Leica doesn't do "Goldilocks" products any more - not luxurious enough.

(To quote a Leica CEO from the past: "Leica(-made) lenses will always be very expensive; all we can do it make sure they are worth the expense [which includes providing faster apertures].

Unless of course it is just a Sigma lens in Leica livery anyway, (such as the somewhat compact, SIGMA-made, NON-APO 50 and 35 Summicron-SL ASPHs).

But if one is OK with those equations, it might happen.

___________________

**For the best image quality, no limit on size is an important factor - it gives the designers far more leeway to bend light correctly. Dates back to the replacement of the tiny 35 Summilux-M pre-ASPH with the twice-as-big Aspherical/ASPH versions. Compact, and good, and fast - in the Leica universe, pick one.

Compare the MTF graphs of the 35 APO-Summicron-SL to those of the 35 APO-Summicron-M. The SL performs better because it is much bigger. (click for tech details downloads)

https://leica-camera.com/en-US/photography/lenses/sl/apo-summicron-sl-35mm-f2-asph

https://leica-camera.com/en-US/photography/lenses/m/apo-summicron-m-35-f2-asph-black-anodized-finish/technical-specification

And look around the industry - note the size of even Sony's 85 f/1.4 GMII - a double-handful! And the same for the top end lenses from Nikon and Canon and even otherwise tiny Fujifilm. Big performance = big size.

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/9850550480/hands-on-with-sony-s-new-85mm-f1-4-gm-ii-lens

[Chris Nebard]

1 hour ago, JoshuaRothman said:

I agree very much. I'm new to the SL system (I mainly use M) and have been pretty flummoxed by the lens choices. I thought I'd be into an APO prime but I'm wary of spending that much money for a lens that big. I'd really like equivalents of Fuji's "Fujicrons"—those are small 35mm, 50mm, and 75mm weather-resistant primes with aperture rings, autofocus, and an f/2 aperture. So far the Sigma DG DN lenses are filing the gap for me; I didn't like the 45 but do like the 35 and will probably pick up the 24 and 65 or 90. But I'd love first-party lenses where I can feel that I "own the best" (like a true LEICAMAN).

@Chris Nebard, have you used the Panasonic f/1l.8 primes, or the Leica versions—the non-APO SL Summicrons? Do you have a preference for the Sigma lenses because of the optics or design or any other reasons? I'd really appreciate any insights into the world of not-huge L-mount lenses.... My overall sense is that there's little to be gained by trying the Leica non-APO Summicrons if I'm already happy with the Sigma lenses.

Hi there,

I haven’t tried the Panasonic f1.8s or the Leica versions - although I’m sure they are perfectly good lenses. You are right, in that I like the design of the Sigma I-Contrmporaries; I much prefer an aperture ring on the lens to using a wheel on the camera body. The Sigmas are very tactile, have an excellent build quality (I’ve had mine 3 years and counting). They’re a bit old school in looks, but (to me at least), look absolutely made for SL bodies. Of course, it’s not all about look and feel - although that definitely increases my enjoyment - it would be a waste of time if these lenses were poor, but they’re not, they are excellent. The 24 f3.5, the 35 f2 and the 65 seem to have gained good reputations - I’m seriously considering the 65 myself. As I say, I can’t compare them to the Panasonic f1.8 primes but I love the output from the small Sigmas. Hope this helps.

[Archiver]

@Chris Nebard The Panasonic 50mm f1.8 is the only one of those lenses that I own, but it's optically very decent. I can see why Leica co-opted them into f2 versions. Some reviews suggest that the Sigma 50mm f2 is even better than the Panasonic, which intrigues me greatly.

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2mSAzsv][img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51768399061_e33bc3dd78_b.jpg[/img][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/2mSAzsv]S5 - A Star With Balls[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/archiver/]Archiver[/url], on Flickr

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2n1tcfN][img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51857490558_d61be88787_b.jpg[/img][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/2n1tcfN]S5 - A drink in the dark[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/archiver/]Archiver[/url], on Flickr

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2qe2rkv][img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53968649767_b4c90c1024_b.jpg[/img][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/2qe2rkv]S5 - Groups and Charters[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/archiver/]Archiver[/url], on Flickr

[Virob]

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A set of 2.8 apo primes of similar size, weight and cost of the rehoused Leica  2.0 aspherical lens would be very welcome. Heck, they could even be 4.0 lenses with software to mimic the look of a faster lens when so desired.

[jaapv]

4 hours ago, adan said:

Leica needs to earn about the same amount from every lens they build - because the costs will be about the same (machining/assembling x-amount of metal, and grinding x-amount of glass, at German labor costs). A Leica-built Elmarit-SL might** be smaller - but it will not be much less expensive than a APO-Summicron-SL.

That is partly why Leica has abandoned most Elmarits in the M-line as well (only the 28 ASPH remains in the lineup) - and dumped the f/2.5 Summarits. Leica sells the big f/1.4 lenses for megabucks - or all you get is an Elmar (21 or 90). Leica doesn't do "Goldilocks" products any more - not luxurious enough.

(To quote a Leica CEO from the past: "Leica(-made) lenses will always be very expensive; all we can do it make sure they are worth the expense [which includes providing faster apertures].

Unless of course it is just a Sigma lens in Leica livery anyway, (such as the somewhat compact, SIGMA-made, NON-APO 50 and 35 Summicron-SL ASPHs).

But if one is OK with those equations, it might happen.

___________________

**For the best image quality, no limit on size is an important factor - it gives the designers far more leeway to bend light correctly. Dates back to the replacement of the tiny 35 Summilux-M pre-ASPH with the twice-as-big Aspherical/ASPH versions. Compact, and good, and fast - in the Leica universe, pick one.

Compare the MTF graphs of the 35 APO-Summicron-SL to those of the 35 APO-Summicron-M. The SL performs better because it is much bigger. (click for tech details downloads)

https://leica-camera.com/en-US/photography/lenses/sl/apo-summicron-sl-35mm-f2-asph

https://leica-camera.com/en-US/photography/lenses/m/apo-summicron-m-35-f2-asph-black-anodized-finish/technical-specification

And look around the industry - note the size of even Sony's 85 f/1.4 GMII - a double-handful! And the same for the top end lenses from Nikon and Canon and even otherwise tiny Fujifilm. Big performance = big size.

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/9850550480/hands-on-with-sony-s-new-85mm-f1-4-gm-ii-lens

Not quite-the Elmarit/Summarits were built on a dedicated production line (designed by Porsche) and used standardized mechanical parts which kept them relatively affordable ( by Leica standards). I guess the production line needed replacing or serious updating and Leica was not prepared to invest in it, given that they never sold in the numbers they hoped for 

[Paul K]

3 hours ago, Chris Nebard said:

Hi there,

I haven’t tried the Panasonic f1.8s or the Leica versions - although I’m sure they are perfectly good lenses. You are right, in that I like the design of the Sigma I-Contrmporaries; I much prefer an aperture ring on the lens to using a wheel on the camera body. The Sigmas are very tactile, have an excellent build quality (I’ve had mine 3 years and counting). They’re a bit old school in looks, but (to me at least), look absolutely made for SL bodies. Of course, it’s not all about look and feel - although that definitely increases my enjoyment - it would be a waste of time if these lenses were poor, but they’re not, they are excellent. The 24 f3.5, the 35 f2 and the 65 seem to have gained good reputations - I’m seriously considering the 65 myself. As I say, I can’t compare them to the Panasonic f1.8 primes but I love the output from the small Sigmas. Hope this helps.

I love the ASPH-SL 50/2. It's a great size, the image quality is as good as I need for most applications, and it simply works well on the body, ergonomically and functionally. I've actually added the 35 now simply because they provide great results and are a good stop-gap until I decide to step up to APO glass. As for the directly Panasonic-branded lenses, I've also had excellent luck with the 85/1.8 and far preferred its look to the Sigma 90/2.8.

[MrFriendly]

On 9/4/2024 at 5:14 AM, adan said:

Leica needs to earn about the same amount from every lens they build - because the costs will be about the same (machining/assembling x-amount of metal, and grinding x-amount of glass, at German labor costs). A Leica-built Elmarit-SL might** be smaller - but it will not be much less expensive than a APO-Summicron-SL.

That is partly why Leica has abandoned most Elmarits in the M-line as well (only the 28 ASPH remains in the lineup) - and dumped the f/2.5 Summarits. Leica sells the big f/1.4 lenses for megabucks - or all you get is an Elmar (21 or 90). Leica doesn't do "Goldilocks" products any more - not luxurious enough.

(To quote a Leica CEO from the past: "Leica(-made) lenses will always be very expensive; all we can do it make sure they are worth the expense [which includes providing faster apertures].

 

It's hard to believe that something like the APO-Vario-Elmarit-SL 90-280mm would outsell a compact Elmarit-SL 35mm prime, but I guess zoom lenses are more popular now?  Leica just released Vario-Elmarit-SL 70-200mm, so they're full steam ahead with the Vario-Elmarit zoom lenses but not Elmarit primes.

[adan]

This little comment from dpreview's report of the announcement may give you a clue. 

"Keen observers may notice that the Vario-Elmarit-SL 70-200mm F2.8 ASPH includes the same number of elements and groups, aspherical lenses, and the same close-focusing distance as the Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 DG DN OS."

As with the non-APO 100-400, non-APO 24-70, non-APO 14-24, and the non-APO compact 35 and 50s - this non-APO 70-200 f/2.8 is another Sigma lens in Leica clothing.

Sigma created the design and thus chose the aperture. Leica's naming conventions for this "badge-engineered" version had to follow suit.

Bottom line: Leica itself will only design and build prime lenses that it can "justifiably" sell at a significant premium for "German-made." 

Which means aperture of f/2.0 (or f/1.4) - and good enough/large enough to rate the "APO-Summicron" label, that can sell for $5000-$7300.

Otherwise it is just - not - worth  Leica's investment of time and money. You want compact f/2.8 "Elmarit"? - get the Sigma.

That is exactly why Leica "opened up" the SL system to Sigma and Panasonic - to spread the products, purchases and costs around, and not have to deal with the "ordinary little stuff" themselves. Except via badge-engineering, when useful.

Yes, Leica produced the (also large and hevy) 16-35, 24-90 and 90-280 to get the SL line rolling a decade ago. But look at the prices compared to the "Sigma disguised as Leica" lenses since then.

90-280 - $7300
24-90 - $5900
16-35 - $6400

Sigma-made "Leica-SL"
100-400 "Elmar" - $2300
70-200 "Elmarit" - $3300
24-70 "Elmarit" - $3000
14-24 "Elmarit" - $2700

Not necessarily better or worse - but Leica doesn't want to waste design/production capacity on those sub-$6000 projects/products.

 

Edited September 5, 2024 by adan

[BernardC]

17 hours ago, adan said:

That is exactly why Leica "opened up" the SL system to Sigma and Panasonic - to spread the products, purchases and costs around, and not have to deal with the "ordinary little stuff" themselves. Except via badge-engineering, when useful.

They learned from the failure of the R line: you can't just release "the best" cameras and lenses and expect that the world will beat a path to you door. You need an entire system from mass-market to high-end. They hardly stand a chance competing directly with the big players (Canon, Nikon, Sony), so they need to partner with companies that can.

So-called "badge engineering" isn't a new thing for Leica. They've been doing it since the Xenon 5cm/1.5 came-out in the mid-1930s (and probably earlier?). It helps to fill-in gaps in the lens lineup, and it provides some reassurance that these third-party lenses meet Leica's performance standards. Some photographers claim that they would never buy such re-branded lenses, but Leica has almost 90 years of sales data. They know what the market wants.

 

[adan]

5 hours ago, BernardC said:

So-called "badge engineering" isn't a new thing for Leica. They've been doing it since the Xenon 5cm/1.5 came-out in the mid-1930s (and probably earlier?). It helps to fill-in gaps in the lens lineup, and it provides some reassurance that these third-party lenses meet Leica's performance standards.

Yep - I originally went into the entire Taylor-Cooke, Schneider, Minolta, Hoya, Kyocera/Zeiss....etc. list in my post. But it made for a long post, so I edited it out.  😁