35mm: Have Steel Rim Re-Issue. Sell my FLE for the APO?

[Smudgerer]

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2 hours ago, patrickcolpron said:

After pressing "Submit Reply" I kicked myself for not mentioning there is are other lens options on the market these days, some of them absolutely terrific. 

Voigtlander lenses are no slouch and their latest offering is stellar and definitely worth considering. 

It is great to hear from people who share similar experience and preference in terms of focal length and lens sizes, who have and use lenses other than Leica on their M cameras.  

Yes you're right, we M mount users are kinda spoiled for choice these days.......Amazing really,

About the Steel Rim re-issue I did not mention that I opted to keep the VM Nokton Classic 35 1.4 SC lens over the Leica SR because it handles better in my opinion and the hood/filter design and set-up is far far better than Leica's mess with the SR. Output wise I really could not tell the difference that mattered for me between the two 35 1.4 lenses, ( and anyway the VM comes in black ! ), so when one puts the wide price differential into the equation the choice was easy.

Edited August 26, 2024 by Smudgerer

[hansvons]

1 hour ago, Smudgerer said:

About the Steel Rim re-issue I did not mention that I opted to keep the VM Nokton Classic 35 1.4 SC lens over the Leica SR because it handles better in my opinion and the hood/filter design and set-up is far far better than Leica's mess with the SR.

Another Nokton f/1.4 SC fan here. I use it only on film and on events, parties etc. where its character (flares, glow, etc) pay into the desired mood.

My preferred 35mm lens is the Summicron V5. Sharp, lots of character, good size. Not too expensive for a daily carry.

I would not use the APO as an everyday lens. Maybe it’s my limited wallet’s fault, but for a lens that I’m not using on payed jobs it’s quite a pricey thing to get damaged or stolen. All of that can be solved with a proper insurance, of course.

In terms of flare resistance and CA, the Summarit of the same focal length is a surprising alternative. My preferred lens for landscape shoots; also small and light. 

[iDont]

8 hours ago, patrickcolpron said:

The 50/1.2 is a terrific lens, but has the same issue as the Steel Rim, 1 meter minimum focusing distance. 

If you are a 35 mil guy, a Summicron 35 V4 is, in my opinion, a better option. Same small size as the Steel Rim, lighter than the Steel Rim with a 70 cm MFD. Plus at f/4 to f/8 it is incredible on film too. 

This said the 50/1.2 is now my go to 50 mil lens, I prefer it over the 50 APO and the 50 ASPH. 

Thanks Patrick for the insights. I love the SR due to the soft glowy wide open. The pictures I take is usually wide open. 
 

Not having used a 50mil before, I believe a 1m from a 50mil is “closer” as compared to the 35, or are they the same? 
 

I’m going to be a Dad by next year and would love to document my mini me. 

I will test out the nocti 1.2 at my local shop to see how it goes 🙂

[patrickcolpron]

10 hours ago, iDont said:

Not having used a 50mil before, I believe a 1m from a 50mil is “closer” as compared to the 35, or are they the same? 
 

I’m going to be a Dad by next year and would love to document my mini me. 

I will test out the nocti 1.2 at my local shop to see how it goes 🙂

Congratulations, you are going to love being a dad. 

The 50/1.2 is my go to lens for family dinners and my kids photos, I prefer it over the 35, subjects appear closer and I don't have to get in their personal space.

First lens I used for the M system years ago with an M3 was an old 50/1.5 with a 1m MFD, you get used to the 1m MFD quickly and work within its limits. 

It can be sharp at f/1,2 when using the range finder patch to focus, just set not to the minimum focus and adjust your position with your eye in the view finder to make your photo. 

When my kids are playing and running I tend to close it down to f/4

[iDont]

6 minutes ago, patrickcolpron said:

Congratulations, you are going to love being a dad. 

The 50/1.2 is my go to lens for family dinners and my kids photos, I prefer it over the 35, subjects appear closer and I don't have to get in their personal space.

First lens I used for the M system years ago with an M3 was an old 50/1.5 with a 1m MFD, you get used to the 1m MFD quickly and work within its limits. 

It can be sharp at f/1,2 when using the range finder patch to focus, just set not to the minimum focus and adjust your position with your eye in the view finder to make your photo. 

When my kids are playing and running I tend to close it down to f/4

Thank you once again, Patrick 🙂

I will be heading down this weekend to check the nocti 🙏🏻

 

 

[TheEyesHaveIt]

I found this to be a very useful comparison video, including between the FLE and the APO (starting at 55min). The APO's sharpness across the field even at f2 is very noticeable. The FLE doesn't really catch up fully - even at 5.6, especially in the corners. I can imagine for landscape or architecture photography, it would be highly desirable.

 

Edited August 29, 2024 by TheEyesHaveIt

[patrickcolpron]

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1 hour ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

 I can imagine for landscape or architecture photography, it would be highly desirable.

Oooooh, on my soap box, 3 things, one, let's be serious for a minute, if you do landscape or architecture photography you should be using an Alpa cameras with a Phase One Digital back plus a couple of their Rodenstock lenses. Or something at that level, not a Leica M camera body with an M lens.  

So no, I know for a fact the APO 35 M is it not highly desirable to an architecture photographer. 😉 

Two doing lens test of colour charts and brick walls only shows you which lens is better at capturing colour charts and brick walls, period. 

Three as much as I like the guys at Red Dot Forum, Josh and David, often times they just repeat what other people say online without doing any fact checking or any real research of their own. Plus their lens test is laughable at best.

When I test a lens, I almost strictly use it for a full year before even pronouncing my judgment on it and even then, I know what I have to say is not definitive and most likely wrong for most people. 

I'd take whatever the folks at Red Dot Forum say with a grain of salt, I see it as more an info-tainment thing, just like anything else on YouTube. 

And I'll add a fourth one, they are there to sell a product (Leica Miami) and, in my books, anything someone tells me, and I mean anyone who has a vested pecuniary interest in the outcome of what they are talking about, with a massive grain of salt.  

Just throwing this out there. 

P.S.: I'd like to add I've had an FLE when it was first launched, for a couple of years and when I went back to the M system for my work, I bought another one in 2017. I have made way more photos with it that I absolutely love than I ever did with the APO. I had a few more years with the FLE and these days, the FLE mostly gathers dust compared to the APO.

So yes, I am fickle but I know that corner sharpness is not the end all and be all, because, I never really have anything that matter in the corner of my photos which falls in the plane of sharp focus...

corner sharpness, schmorner schmarpness. Is corner sharpness really that critical in the big scheme of things?  No, its isn't, nice to have but unless you plan on shooing colour charts and brick walls, pretty much useless.

The big plus of the APO is the complete lack of fringing when shooting against the light and in high contrast situation, when making photos of my kids outdoors, that's way more handy than corner sharpness.

Just pointing out the obvious, don't miss the forest for the tree, if you zero in on corner sharpness you'll miss out the real reason this lens truly shines for some people who use it daily since it was launched.

No fringing, very little to no flare, great color rendering and pleasant skin tones. On an M11 it is astounding (Once you correct the magenta cast! 😉 ) 

Anyhoo, off my soap box... okay let the vilification begin! 

P.P.S.: You seem to really want the lens, no need to justify your decision, just get it. You will love it, I have one and I love it. The APO 35 M is my desert Island lens after all 🙂 

Edited August 29, 2024 by patrickcolpron
Just to add a P.P.S. just do it, oh wait that's Nike, just buy it! That's more Leica... huh, I mean more like it :-)

[TheEyesHaveIt]

45 minutes ago, patrickcolpron said:

Oooooh, on my soap box, 3 things, one, let's be serious for a minute, if you do landscape or architecture photography you should be using an Alpa cameras with a Phase One Digital back plus a couple of their Rodenstock lenses. Or something at that level, not a Leica M camera body with an M lens.  

So no, I know for a fact the APO 35 M is it not highly desirable to an architecture photographer. 😉 

Two doing lens test of colour charts and brick walls only shows you which lens is better at capturing colour charts and brick walls, period. 

Three as much as I like the guys at Red Dot Forum, Josh and David, often times they just repeat what other people say online without doing any fact checking or any real research of their own. Plus their lens test is laughable at best.

When I test a lens, I almost strictly use it for a full year before even pronouncing my judgment on it and even then, I know what I have to say is not definitive and most likely wrong for most people. 

I'd take whatever the folks at Red Dot Forum say with a grain of salt, I see it as more an info-tainment thing, just like anything else on YouTube. 

And I'll add a fourth one, they are there to sell a product (Leica Miami) and, in my books, anything someone tells me, and I mean anyone who has a vested pecuniary interest in the outcome of what they are talking about, with a massive grain of salt.  

Just throwing this out there. 

P.S.: I'd like to add I've had an FLE when it was first launched, for a couple of years and when I went back to the M system for my work, I bought another one in 2017. I have made way more photos with it that I absolutely love than I ever did with the APO. I had a few more years with the FLE and these days, the FLE mostly gathers dust compared to the APO.

So yes, I am fickle but I know that corner sharpness is not the end all and be all, because, I never really have anything that matter in the corner of my photos which falls in the plane of sharp focus...

corner sharpness, schmorner schmarpness. Is corner sharpness really that critical in the big scheme of things?  No, its isn't, nice to have but unless you plan on shooing colour charts and brick walls, pretty much useless.

The big plus of the APO is the complete lack of fringing when shooting against the light and in high contrast situation, when making photos of my kids outdoors, that's way more handy than corner sharpness.

Just pointing out the obvious, don't miss the forest for the tree, if you zero in on corner sharpness you'll miss out the real reason this lens truly shines for some people who use it daily since it was launched.

No fringing, very little to no flare, great color rendering and pleasant skin tones. On an M11 it is astounding (Once you correct the magenta cast! 😉 ) 

Anyhoo, off my soap box... okay let the vilification begin! 

P.P.S.: You seem to really want the lens, no need to justify your decision, just get it. You will love it, I have one and I love it. The APO 35 M is my desert Island lens after all 🙂 

Fair enough

[Abram]

I’m in the dual 35mm boat right now actually as I’ve been using the 35mm FLE for quite a few years now as a primary lens and I know it well. I just recently had the opportunity to purchase the 35 Steel Rim reissue second-hand (and Leica sent me the updated lens hood this week no charge) as I previously owned the 35 Summilux V2 a number of years ago and really quite missed having one. 

I have already really taken to the Steel Rim and any perceived flaws with the lens hood or whatever don’t bother me. Sure I’d have preferred a black lens too but it’s so small, again it’s a non-issue. I wasn’t intending to sell my FLE as it’s been such a reliable and consistent lens for me to work with, and also fits in really well with my setup (21 SEM, 35 FLE, 50 Asph and a 90 Elmarit), but you never know. I may decided to simplify things. 

All I can say is that my first impression of the Steel Rim is very positive and I really enjoy its rendering. My primary camera is the M10 Monochrom but it will also be used on film. 

[JoshuaR]

This is an interesting discussion that I relate to. I had the 35 FLE for a while and it was my main lens, but I ultimately found its size fatiguing. Also, the super-sharp rendering, while awesome, eventually started to feel unappealing. For me, 35mm and 50mm are 'people' lenses, and I wanted something with more gentleness and personality. The Steel Rim replaced the FLE and I now pair it with a 50 Noctilux f/1.2. A 28mm Summicron v1, which to my eyes has a slightly 'moodier' rendering than the 28mm Elmarit ASPH, rounds out the three-lens kit. I own other lenses but they're the main three.

The 1m MFD of the Steel Rim and Noctilux bothered me at first, but I decided to just accept it and for me it's basically fine. I use the glow apertures pretty rarely; what I really value about the lenses is the way they look at f/2, f/2.8, and f/4. They are to my eyes perfect 'family' lenses, and I prefer their output to other, cheaper 'family' lenses I've tried, like the Voigtlander 35 f/1.4 and 50 f/1.5. It's an expensive pair but I don't ever anticipate changing it. The 28mm Cron v1 is more modern, but I feel that's okay in a wider lens—for those types of pictures I want more detail.

When I first bought the Steel Rim one of the first pictures I took was of two older members of my family. "This looks good!" they said. Previous pictures with the FLE had brought out every wrinkle. It was a clarifying moment for me. It's kept me from splashing out for an APO lens and from entertaining thoughts of a return to the FLE.

 

[Abram]

I was (and still am) also a huge fan of the 28 Summicron V1. Absolutely wonderful lens that I've had a handful of times. That sounds like a really nice setup Joshua! It took me a while to curate the lens I have (as I don't have unlimited budget to buy everything I'd like) so I'm taking it slow before deciding to let anything go. 

[Pika898]

I was lucky to have owned the reissued steel rim, 35 fle v1/2 and the apo at various points in time.

sold the steel rim when the novelty wore out, between the FLE and the APO, I very much prefer the ergonomics and size of the APO and it’s my one and only lens now. 

[jlehrer]

On 8/29/2024 at 4:42 PM, patrickcolpron said:

Oooooh, on my soap box, 3 things, one, let's be serious for a minute, if you do landscape or architecture photography you should be using an Alpa cameras with a Phase One Digital back plus a couple of their Rodenstock lenses. Or something at that level, not a Leica M camera body with an M lens.  

So no, I know for a fact the APO 35 M is it not highly desirable to an architecture photographer. 😉 

Two doing lens test of colour charts and brick walls only shows you which lens is better at capturing colour charts and brick walls, period. 

Three as much as I like the guys at Red Dot Forum, Josh and David, often times they just repeat what other people say online without doing any fact checking or any real research of their own. Plus their lens test is laughable at best.

When I test a lens, I almost strictly use it for a full year before even pronouncing my judgment on it and even then, I know what I have to say is not definitive and most likely wrong for most people. 

I'd take whatever the folks at Red Dot Forum say with a grain of salt, I see it as more an info-tainment thing, just like anything else on YouTube. 

And I'll add a fourth one, they are there to sell a product (Leica Miami) and, in my books, anything someone tells me, and I mean anyone who has a vested pecuniary interest in the outcome of what they are talking about, with a massive grain of salt.  

Just throwing this out there. 

P.S.: I'd like to add I've had an FLE when it was first launched, for a couple of years and when I went back to the M system for my work, I bought another one in 2017. I have made way more photos with it that I absolutely love than I ever did with the APO. I had a few more years with the FLE and these days, the FLE mostly gathers dust compared to the APO.

So yes, I am fickle but I know that corner sharpness is not the end all and be all, because, I never really have anything that matter in the corner of my photos which falls in the plane of sharp focus...

corner sharpness, schmorner schmarpness. Is corner sharpness really that critical in the big scheme of things?  No, its isn't, nice to have but unless you plan on shooing colour charts and brick walls, pretty much useless.

The big plus of the APO is the complete lack of fringing when shooting against the light and in high contrast situation, when making photos of my kids outdoors, that's way more handy than corner sharpness.

Just pointing out the obvious, don't miss the forest for the tree, if you zero in on corner sharpness you'll miss out the real reason this lens truly shines for some people who use it daily since it was launched.

No fringing, very little to no flare, great color rendering and pleasant skin tones. On an M11 it is astounding (Once you correct the magenta cast! 😉 ) 

Anyhoo, off my soap box... okay let the vilification begin! 

P.P.S.: You seem to really want the lens, no need to justify your decision, just get it. You will love it, I have one and I love it. The APO 35 M is my desert Island lens after all 🙂 

Harsh! I take our lens testing seriously.

[patrickcolpron]

15 minutes ago, jlehrer said:

Harsh! I take our lens testing seriously.

Hi Josh, well, at least one of us does 😉 Look, it is informative and also entertaining but far from accurate and definitive, I don't think my lowly lens reviews are any better. 

The format looks great, polish and high quality but the content doesn't stand up to scrutiny. 

To qualify my comment that on Red Dot forum you repeat what you read or hear online in your own lens review without fact checking or doing any research of your own first, you do state only 1500 original steel rim lenses were made, that's a fact.

The reality is, even Leica said there were 7500 original Steel Rim lenses made.

That's easily verified, if one takes the time to do it, through 3 independent and different easily findable and reliable sources. One of them quoting a verified source directly from Leica,  the records at Leica brings the number of original Steel Rim lenses made closer to 8000 than 7500. 

Otherwise original Steel Rim wouldn't come up so often on the secondary market after all these years if only 1500 had been made back in the days, let's be real here, . 

I stand by what I said because there is more to it, but that is not here or there. 

[jlehrer]

8 minutes ago, patrickcolpron said:

Hi Josh, well, at least one of us does 😉 Look, it is informative and also entertaining but far from accurate and definitive, I don't think my lowly lens reviews are any better. 

The format looks great, polish and high quality but the content doesn't stand up to scrutiny. 

To qualify my comment that on Red Dot forum you repeat what you read or hear online in your own lens review without fact checking or doing any research of your own first, you do state only 1500 original steel rim lenses were made, that's a fact.

The reality is, even Leica said there were 7500 original Steel Rim lenses made.

That's easily verified, if one takes the time to do it, through 3 independent and different easily findable and reliable sources. One of them quoting a verified source directly from Leica,  the records at Leica brings the number of original Steel Rim lenses made closer to 8000 than 7500. 

Otherwise original Steel Rim wouldn't come up so often on the secondary market after all these years if only 1500 had been made back in the days, let's be real here, . 

I stand by what I said because there is more to it, but that is not here or there. 

If I made an error or two through our many episodes (I think we are well past 70 shows now), I certainly didn't do it intentionally. I am far from perfect that's for sure! Can you send me the clip in question please? I found one where I state Steel Rim production was "in the thousands", from our 35mm Summilux-M Lens Episode.

[patrickcolpron]

2 hours ago, jlehrer said:

If I made an error or two through our many episodes (I think we are well past 70 shows now), I certainly didn't do it intentionally. I am far from perfect that's for sure! Can you send me the clip in question please? I found one where I state Steel Rim production was "in the thousands", from our 35mm Summilux-M Lens Episode.

We all make mistakes, I am far from perfect. Your camera and lens reviews are very informative and a good starting point.

Your YouTube videos are well put together specially the live events, thank you for that.

I do watch all Red Dot forums videos, and like anything online these days, I do fact check and test the heck out of my own lenses and cameras to see what's missing.

I also research and have access to Leica directly as a "good customer" I feel I might be granted more access when I ask questions, I guess the squeaky wheel gets the grease and I also have access to a couple of serious collectors.

Anyhoo, might be in one of the videos and will not re-watch everything to find it tonight, but it is definitely on Red Dot Forum's blog, which I also read. 

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2022/10/leica-adds-summilux-m-35mm-f-1-4-version-1-steel-rim-to-classic-lineup/

 

Edited September 4, 2024 by patrickcolpron
I am old, a couple of corrections

[jlehrer]

2 minutes ago, patrickcolpron said:

We all make mistakes, and I will say your camera and lens reviews are very informative and a good starting point.

I do watch all your videos, but like anything online these days, I do fact check and test the heck out of my own lenses and cameras to see what's missing.

I also research and have access to Leica directly as a "good customer" I am granted more access when I ask questions, I guess.

Anyhoo, might be in one of the videos and will not re-watch everything to find it, but it is definitely on Red Dot Forum's blog, which I also read. 

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2022/10/leica-adds-summilux-m-35mm-f-1-4-version-1-steel-rim-to-classic-lineup/

You might want to correct that  

Ah, that's something David wrote, so I will definitely mention it to him! Thanks for pointing it out, and it explains why I didn't have a recollection of that particular thing.

[Roy Bigsby]

4 hours ago, jlehrer said:

Harsh! I take our lens testing seriously.

As someone who is relatively new to Leica and photography, I have found the Red Dot Forum YouTube videos invaluable. I keep returning to many of the lens videos again and again, and always look forward to upcoming episodes. It's perhaps my favourite Leica/camera content on the internet. Thanks for helping make these videos, Josh. It's much appreciated.  

[ELAN]

I have all the Leica 35mm lenses mentioned in this discussion and shot thousands of images with each of them.

The 35 APO is by far the best with clearly and sharpness and bokeh like no other. Shooting other modern 35s now seems like a thin vail is placed over the front element.

The silver chrome KoB is my second favorite. The size and ergonomics are fantastic. And the Mandler rendering is beautiful when I’m in the mood for that.

The 35 AA is my third favorite. While subtle, the rendering is sublime.

The reissue SR is my least favorite 35 because of the MFD, a flimsy aperture ring, and for some reason an unwillingness to mount on my MP.  The 46mm front also feels odd for a small lens. 

Edited September 5, 2024 by ELAN

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[Mr.Kite]

vor 33 Minuten schrieb ELAN:

...

The silver chrome KoB is my second favorite. The size and ergonomics are fantastic. And the Mandler rendering is beautiful when I’m in the mood for that.

...

Which model is this exactly?