Frame Spacing Issue

[blackdot]

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I recently had a few rolls with inconsistent, wide frame spacing on my M6TTL - some frames would have almost couple of centimeters of space between them, but nothing overlapped. After reading a bunch of random forum threads, I tried opening the back after the last roll and turning the post with the sprocket teeth slightly, and it indeed was slack and able to be “clicked into place” this way.

Can someone explain how that mechanism works and affects frame spacing? I am going to shoot another roll to see if that fixes the problem, and if not, it is still just barely under a one year used warranty. I’ve shot probably 100 rolls with this camera without any such problems. Just curious if this a common thing and how that part could cause frame spacing to go wider, if that indeed was the issue. Thanks.

Edited July 20, 2024 by blackdot

[250swb]

6 hours ago, blackdot said:

 I tried opening the back after the last roll and turning the post with the sprocket teeth slightly, and it indeed was slack and able to be “clicked into place” this way.

 

Did you still have the rewind lever in the down position because this disengages the ratchet so the teeth will turn freely? As for the couple of centimetres of space between the photos are you sure you didn't have the lens cap on and you are looking at a blank frame? 

Edited July 20, 2024 by 250swb

[blackdot]

1 minute ago, 250swb said:

Did you still have the rewind lever in the down position because this disengages the ratchet so the teeth will turn freely? As for the couple of centimetres of space between the photos are you sure you didn't have the lens cap on and you are looking at a blank frame? 

Are you serious? lol

[250swb]

Just now, blackdot said:

Are you serious? lol

Well frame spacing can be affected by the way somebody advances the film, in small increments for example can make it variable, or for wider gaps it may be a faulty clutch mechanism, but my answer was based on the simple idea that if in doubt check the photographer first because the idea 'its always the camera' is a fallacy.

[blackdot]

1 minute ago, 250swb said:

Well frame spacing can be affected by the way somebody advances the film, in small increments for example can make it variable, or for wider gaps it may be a faulty clutch mechanism, but my answer was based on the simple idea that if in doubt check the photographer first because the idea 'its always the camera' is a fallacy.

I thought you were kidding about the lens cap ;).

No, I've used this particular camera for almost a year with no such issues, and my M-A is also fine. Been using Leicas since 07 and maybe a had a couple of odd film-slips due to sloppy loading, but this is happening consistently over the last three rolls. After the roll I just loaded, if it is still happening, I'll take it back in. Hopefully that is not a complicated repair, but like I said, at least it is under warranty for a couple more months.

[blackdot]

So I took the M6TTL in for warranty repair, and they told me it has to go to Germany (!!) and will take over a year to get back (!!!!). I'm curious if I should get a second opinion, as I would rather pay a normal repair fee and get it back in a month rather waiting a year for a free repair.

Is it really normal for a frame spacing repair to require parts only available in Germany? I know that's probably hard to answer, but this situation kinda sucks, so I'm wondering if anyone has been through this before.

[M9reno]

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A year's wait is ridiculous. If I were you, I would look for a local repair person and (regrettably) accept to be out of pocket for the cost.

[blackdot]

1 hour ago, M9reno said:

A year's wait is ridiculous. If I were you, I would look for a local repair person and (regrettably) accept to be out of pocket for the cost.

I already emailed another shop to see if they think they can do it. The shop I bought it from is a very reputable Leica dealer, so I don't think they are just trying to get rid of me.

[69xchange]

7 hours ago, blackdot said:

I already emailed another shop to see if they think they can do it. The shop I bought it from is a very reputable Leica dealer, so I don't think they are just trying to get rid of me.

Wait times (1 year) at Leica is the “new normal”.  But just because it’s “normal”, we should not be accepting this.

[delta100]

Wait time one year, is that the same for cameras still under Warranty? See post in Camera Scratching topic. My MA is just four months old and on the way back to Germany!

Edited August 29, 2024 by delta100

[blackdot]

6 hours ago, delta100 said:

Wait time one year, is that the same for cameras still under Warranty? See post in Camera Scratching topic. My MA is just four months old and on the way back to Germany!

This is a store warranty on a used camera, not a Leica warranty.

[69xchange]

20 hours ago, delta100 said:

Wait time one year, is that the same for cameras still under Warranty? See post in Camera Scratching topic. My MA is just four months old and on the way back to Germany!

Roughly, but if you receive it sooner, let us know. 
 

Yours should be sooner though because it’s under manufacturer warranty. Maybe 8-12 weeks?

Edited August 30, 2024 by 69xchange

[Esleepy]

On 8/29/2024 at 12:36 PM, delta100 said:

Wait time one year, is that the same for cameras still under Warranty? See post in Camera Scratching topic. My MA is just four months old and on the way back to Germany!

My MP was under warranty and I sent it out for the scratch issue. I handed it over to my local Leica store and it took exactly one month for it to come back.

[blackdot]

Does anyone have any recent information about repair costs from Leica themselves for fixing film advance issues (on older models like the M6TTL)? I'm getting some questionable information from the store.

[Mute-on]

2 hours ago, blackdot said:

Does anyone have any recent information about repair costs from Leica themselves for fixing film advance issues (on older models like the M6TTL)? I'm getting some questionable information from the store.

Unfortunately I have no such experience regarding frame spacing or recent Leica factory service. The last time I had Leica repair a camera and lens they were still in Solms. It was a sufficiently painful experience even then that I had no inclination to use them again. Certainly today, there is no justification for using Leica to service any of the older film bodies or lenses, unless it is to access out of production parts that they might possibly still have in stock (or have re-engineered and reproduced - although I am not aware of any examples). It is generally accepted that the resources at Leica’s disposal to repair film cameras are extremely limited, both in availability and experience, if not outright expertise. Given the extensive repair times, and genuine likelihood that a repair on an out of production film camera will not be satisfactory, it would be an exercise in frustration, possibly futility, to entrust such an exercise to Leica.

It is obvious there is something quite wrong with the advance mechanism in your M6. Your best option is to find a known to be competent and reliable Leica repair technician, and send the camera to them. Your store warranty ought to cover the cost of such a repairer if they are acceptable to both yourself, and the store in question.

It would be perverse for the store to insist that only Leica can do the work. If that is the case, I would simply return the camera and ask for a refund. You would very likely be waiting up to 12 months for Leica to attend to the camera, if they are capable of correcting the issue at all. That would amount to offering the dealer a 12 month interest free loan to the value a camera sold to you which is otherwise now unfit for purpose.

I hope you find a satisfactory resolution. 

 

[250swb]

5 hours ago, Mute-on said:

 

It is obvious there is something quite wrong with the advance mechanism in your M6. Your best option is to find a known to be competent and reliable Leica repair technician, and send the camera to them. Your store warranty ought to cover the cost of such a repairer if they are acceptable to both yourself, and the store in question.

 

 

I can't imagine how two centimetres (3/4") gap between frames is possible, it must be a massive failure. The only time I've seen anything like that is when a new film user was turning the rewind crank the wrong way thinking they were tensioning the film but instead were pushing it across the gate. 

It's beyond a reasonable expectation to wait a year and this should be explained to the camera shop.

[blackdot]

21 hours ago, Mute-on said:

Unfortunately I have no such experience regarding frame spacing or recent Leica factory service. The last time I had Leica repair a camera and lens they were still in Solms. It was a sufficiently painful experience even then that I had no inclination to use them again. Certainly today, there is no justification for using Leica to service any of the older film bodies or lenses, unless it is to access out of production parts that they might possibly still have in stock (or have re-engineered and reproduced - although I am not aware of any examples). It is generally accepted that the resources at Leica’s disposal to repair film cameras are extremely limited, both in availability and experience, if not outright expertise. Given the extensive repair times, and genuine likelihood that a repair on an out of production film camera will not be satisfactory, it would be an exercise in frustration, possibly futility, to entrust such an exercise to Leica.

It is obvious there is something quite wrong with the advance mechanism in your M6. Your best option is to find a known to be competent and reliable Leica repair technician, and send the camera to them. Your store warranty ought to cover the cost of such a repairer if they are acceptable to both yourself, and the store in question.

It would be perverse for the store to insist that only Leica can do the work. If that is the case, I would simply return the camera and ask for a refund. You would very likely be waiting up to 12 months for Leica to attend to the camera, if they are capable of correcting the issue at all. That would amount to offering the dealer a 12 month interest free loan to the value a camera sold to you which is otherwise now unfit for purpose.

I hope you find a satisfactory resolution. 

 

I’ve already asked the shop to buy the camera back towards a working one, or to reimburse me if another shop can fix it, and they refused. I should have mentioned this is in Japan. 

[blackdot]

15 hours ago, 250swb said:

I can't imagine how two centimetres (3/4") gap between frames is possible, it must be a massive failure. The only time I've seen anything like that is when a new film user was turning the rewind crank the wrong way thinking they were tensioning the film but instead were pushing it across the gate. 

It's beyond a reasonable expectation to wait a year and this should be explained to the camera shop.

It’s weird. If I turn the post with the sprocket teeth slightly to the right so it locks, then load the film, it seems to be ok. 

The shop is apologetic, but not offering any real solutions yet. Leica Japan is telling them it needs to go to Germany and the repair is estimated at roughly US$2000 equivalent. That sounds fishy. I asked for written details about the parts required, etc, and they are going to contact them again on Monday. 

 

[Mute-on]

10 minutes ago, blackdot said:

I’ve already asked the shop to buy the camera back towards a working one, or to reimburse me if another shop can fix it, and they refused. I should have mentioned this is in Japan. 

Ask them if they will send it to Kanto Camera (in Tokyo). They will be able to fix it, and for far less than $2,000 (which is utterly ridiculous). If they are refusing to send it to Kanto and to cover the cost under warranty, then something is very wrong. I have had two lenses and an M4 fully overhauled at Kanto Camera, and the work was immaculate.

Good luck!

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[blackdot]

4 minutes ago, Mute-on said:

Ask them if they will send it to Kanto Camera (in Tokyo). They will be able to fix it, and for far less than $2,000 (which is utterly ridiculous). If they are refusing to send it to Kanto and to cover the cost under warranty, then something is very wrong. I have had two lenses and an M4 fully overhauled at Kanto Camera, and the work was immaculate.

Good luck!

I think Kanto’s wait time may be pretty long as well. At least it is for painting. I’ll send them an email just to check. But Map’s (where I bought it) warranty does not cover outside repair shops.