Future Leica Products Lineup

[sdai]

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Ok, it's time for a workout at the gym ... before I go, please allow me to start something for fun.

 

Future products lineup from Leica ... based on rumors, hearsays and pure speculations:

 

Top tier: R10, 4:5 aspect ratio, 28x35mm, 21MP, 8000-10000USD range (ok, this is my wild guess )

2nd tier: M9, 35mm full frame, 17MP, 5000-6000 USD range (I'm quite positive on this one ... )

3rd tier: M8-2, 1.33x sensor, 10MP, 3000-4000 USD range ... an improved M8. (again, this is my guess)

next tier: a rebadged Sigma DP-1

 

What's missing in your opinion? what shouldn't exist?

 

See you all later.

 

P/S. Some background readings ... the link was first provided by forum member Venkeman.

 

Drei-Stufen-Plan für Leica - Nachrichten welt_print - WELT ONLINE

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[miami91]

Ok, it's time for a workout at the gym ... before I go, please allow me to start something for fun.

 

Future products lineup from Leica ... based on rumors, hearsays and pure speculations:

 

Top tier: R10, 4:5 aspect ratio, 28x35mm, 21MP, 8000-10000USD range (ok, this is my wild guess )

2nd tier: M9, 35mm full frame, 17MP, 5000-6000 USD range (I'm quite positive on this one ... )

3rd tier: M8-2, 1.33x sensor, 10MP, 3000-4000 USD range ... an improved M8. (again, this is my guess)

next tier: a rebadged Sigma DP-1

 

What's missing in your opinion? what shouldn't exist?

 

See you all later.

 

P/S. Some background readings ... the link was first provided by forum member Venkeman.

 

Drei-Stufen-Plan für Leica - Nachrichten welt_print - WELT ONLINE

 

I'd love to see #1 and #2, and if #2 comes to fruition, could care less abut #3. As for a rebadged Sigma DP-1, don't know anything about it, so don't have an opinion one way or another.

 

How about another 4/3 dSLR?

 

Jeff.

[sdai]

How about another 4/3 dSLR?

 

Jeff, all talks about the pro and cons of 4/3 aside, I think it has to prove that it can sell in the first place, and I don't see how current 4/3 models can fit into the picture while Leica is still having difficulties in clearing the Digilux3 stock.

 

Will you pay $2000 for a rebadged L10? what about a $3000 rebadged E-3? ...

[marknorton]

Not sure about the 28 * 35mm frame size.

 

One of the few things we can be certain of (we can, can't we?) is that the R10 will have to support as many existing R-mount lenses as possible, even if there are new autofocus lenses added to the range. Without that basic compatability, the R10 is surely dead in the water.

 

That says no change in the sensor-lens flange distance and I think squeezing in a mirror to support an image height beyond FF is going to be difficult, not to mention the huge pentaprism. I'm not an R shooter, but I get the impression most would prefer the R10 to be smaller than an R9/DMR, not bigger.

[sdai]

Not sure about the 28 * 35mm frame size.

 

One of the few things we can be certain of (we can, can't we?) is that the R10 will have to support as many existing R-mount lenses as possible, even if there are new autofocus lenses added to the range. Without that basic compatability, the R10 is surely dead in the water.

 

That says no change in the sensor-lens flange distance and I think squeezing in a mirror to support an image height beyond FF is going to be difficult, not to mention the huge pentaprism. I'm not an R shooter, but I get the impression most would prefer the R10 to be smaller than an R9/DMR, not bigger.

 

Mark, 28x35 is just my speculation based on the assumption that there's no change to current R system's image circle, mechanical mount and mirror box, it does fit.

 

If they do this then I think 95% (if not all) of existing R lenses should have no problems, I doubt there'll be 100% full guarantee on all previous built R optics and if they have to leave something behind this is certainly not unprecedented ... not all M lenses are usable on the M8 right?

 

All pixel numbers are calculated using the existing 6.8 um pixel pitch, which is old Kodak technology ... the next batch of Hasselblads and Phase One backs are built with much higher pixel density and they're targeting 50-80 MP.

 

[marknorton]

I could certainly see a 5:4 aspect ratio which fitted inside the standard R image circle - I don't know enough about the R geometry and image circle margin to know whether the slightly larger image circle you propose would be OK.

 

If they do go outside FF, it will be interesting to see how they've sourced the shutter. The M8 shutter is standard FF Copal, and I imagine getting Copal to supply to a custom size is not inexpensive...

 

As regards pixel counts, it's the usual trade-off between noise and pixel count and maybe Hasselblad and Phase One are prepared to accept lower ISO in return for higher resolution. I think 160Mb TIFF files will be downright inconvenient to deal with!

[sdai]

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I could certainly see a 5:4 aspect ratio which fitted inside the standard R image circle - I don't know enough about the R geometry and image circle margin to know whether the slightly larger image circle you propose would be OK.

 

If they do go outside FF, it will be interesting to see how they've sourced the shutter. The M8 shutter is standard FF Copal, and I imagine getting Copal to supply to a custom size is not inexpensive...

 

As regards pixel counts, it's the usual trade-off between noise and pixel count and maybe Hasselblad and Phase One are prepared to accept lower ISO in return for higher resolution. I think 160Mb TIFF files will be downright inconvenient to deal with!

 

Mark, I think the exact spec. of R system has never gone public and I couldn't find any accurate reference. My calculation was based on an image circle diameter of 45mm, if you calculate using the 24x36 size the diameter comes out as 43.27mm.

 

Now anybody who has a R camera could take measure of its mirror and ground glass size, tell yourselves how big it is ... I think it's already big enough. The major item I think Leica needs to work out is the prism and viewfinder ... current viewfinder of R9 only covers 96% vertical and 97% horizontal with a magnification factor of 0.75 ... a lot of things can be done here.

 

I'm not exactly sure about the shutter mechanism, but my suggest frame coverage only extends 4mm vertically and actually cuts back 1mm horizontally, anybody who has dismantled a R camera should be able to tell us if the existing shutter is big enough already.

 

I've read an interview with Phase One lately but can't remember where, and he basically indicated the file size is a headache in their product planning as well ... and that's exactly why they seek cooperation with Microsoft, I think what they intend to do is ... optimize their software algorithm, develop a better RAW format and integrate Microsoft's HD JPEG format in future products.

 

However, I think 21MP really isn't big deal based on today's technology ... I can live with 3fps, even 1fps will do.

[ptomsu]

Mark, I think the exact spec. of R system has never gone public and I couldn't find any accurate reference. My calculation was based on an image circle diameter of 45mm, if you calculate using the 24x36 size the diameter comes out as 43.27mm.

 

Now anybody who has a R camera could take measure of its mirror and ground glass size, tell yourselves how big it is ... I think it's already big enough. The major item I think Leica needs to work out is the prism and viewfinder ... current viewfinder of R9 only covers 96% vertical and 97% horizontal with a magnification factor of 0.75 ... a lot of things can be done here.

 

I'm not exactly sure about the shutter mechanism, but my suggest frame coverage only extends 4mm vertically and actually cuts back 1mm horizontally, anybody who has dismantled a R camera should be able to tell us if the existing shutter is big enough already.

 

I've read an interview with Phase One lately but can't remember where, and he basically indicated the file size is a headache in their product planning as well ... and that's exactly why they seek cooperation with Microsoft, I think what they intend to do is ... optimize their software algorithm, develop a better RAW format and integrate Microsoft's HD JPEG format in future products.

 

However, I think 21MP really isn't big deal based on today's technology ... I can live with 3fps, even 1fps will do.

 

I do fully agree!

 

And with 21MP or similar the file size will be in RAW some 30MB if the use same algorithms as in DMR (which had 10MP). So this is not too bad.

[miami91]

Jeff, all talks about the pro and cons of 4/3 aside, I think it has to prove that it can sell in the first place, and I don't see how current 4/3 models can fit into the picture while Leica is still having difficulties in clearing the Digilux3 stock.

 

Will you pay $2000 for a rebadged L10? what about a $3000 rebadged E-3? ...

 

Perhaps Leica did make too large a production run of the Digilux 3 --- something that can be taken into consideration with the Digilux 4 (he says hopefully). I have no interest in a rebadged L10, but would pay a premium (over Olympus pricing) for a "rebadged" E-3. $3000.00? Definitely if a lens is included. Body only, I'd consider $2500 to $3000 if it were as robust as the E-3 --- the Digilux 3 is definitely not what I'd call robust build quality.

 

Anyway, I will invest in the R system if/when the R10 materializes, but if the body alone is 7-10K USD, I won't be able to initially afford more than one lens. So I'd sure like to have a new 4/3 body to supplement whilst I make the transition. And I'll be pretty disappointed if the D3 is a one-off, given Leica's whole "we're introducing a new camera system" song and dance. One body and out is not much of a committment, IMO. And yes, I know they've lent design expertise to a couple of Panasonic lenses, but if this is the extent of their investment in the 4/3 consortium, I'll feel a bit betrayed.

 

Jeff.

[ajthornbury]

Re-badged E-3, now you that is something. With a marriage between Olympus and Leica, you are talking quality.

[marknorton]

Perhaps Leica did make too large a production run of the Digilux 3.

 

Leica of course do not make the Digilux 3, or even the lens. They breathe their IP on it so that it can carry the name.

 

I suspect the problem was that they looked at the Digilux 2 and the D-Lux 2, both of which sold out, and thought, "we'd better order a few (thousand) more from Panasonic, so that we don't look stupid by selling out of them again".

 

It will be interesting to see where they go with 4/3...

[charlesphoto99]

I seriously doubt Leica are betting the bank on the R10. I would imagine a re-configured R 9 with FF sensor. And considering Leica invented the 24x36 format I doubt they'll even consider straying from that. I think their conservative track record regarding change speaks for itself.

 

I'm sure theyre aiming for a FF M but will most likely settle for a 1.2 or 1.1 or even stay with current. But more robust all around. Impossible to say what they'll do but theyre working on it.

[Bob Ross]

Re-badged E-3, now you that is something. With a marriage between Olympus and Leica, you are talking quality.

The E-3 is a nice unit ( I really like mine) and if Leica used the E-3 viewfinder and reworked the controls to their style of ergonomics, to be a little like the R8/9, they would have the "economy R line anchored. If they could create an adapter for R lenses that worked with the body with auto diaphram, it would get real interesting.

There are apparently a lot (I've read 24 to 28) of new lenses in development at Leica and "a few" of them are for the M & R. So, what are the other new lenses for? Do they go to 4/3rds mount or maybe some to a new camera....a mini M......that is a lot of new lenses.

Bob

[hankg]

I think Leica has ambitious plans for the R10 so I expect a camera that will cause some buzz. The larger then 24x36 rumour sounds interesting maybe they could have a mirror like the Hassey that had some sort of sliding arrangement to squeeze it into the space and still get full coverage.

 

If the M9 is full frame I don't think they need to add much in the way of pixels, 12MP would be more then enough -more dynamic range or better high ISO would get more sales then more MP. The 12MP Nikon D3 created a lot more excitement then the 21MP Canon this year.

 

For 4/3, Olympus is the go to company and unless Leica have something to bring to the party they shouldn't bother. Just rebadging the E3 is not going to add any value as Olympus has a stellar rep in optics and still photography. It's not like they need Leica to give them credibility.

 

A rebadged DP1? Sounds good - put a fast tiny 40/2 summicron on it. That would outsell the Sigma version with it's 28/4 by a wide margin even if it cost a lot more.

[sdai]

If the M9 is full frame I don't think they need to add much in the way of pixels, 12MP would be more then enough -more dynamic range or better high ISO would get more sales then more MP. The 12MP Nikon D3 created a lot more excitement then the 21MP Canon this year.

 

Kodak's current process mainly supported two options ... either 6.8µm, which is used in DMR and M8, and will end up with a 18.7MP 24x36 sensor, or, if they go for 9µm, you'll only get a 10.67MP 24x36mm sensor.

 

The 12MP Nikon D3 sensor has a 8.45µm pixel pitch ... now that would be some extra work for both Kodak and Leica, which may not be worth it.

 

[robert_parker]

I'll just add in a comment which I've just made elsewhere on the forum - that I'd love to see a minature (ideally pocket sized) lightweight high performance compact, preferably with interchangeable lenses

[sdai]

A rebadged DP1? Sounds good - put a fast tiny 40/2 summicron on it. That would outsell the Sigma version with it's 28/4 by a wide margin even if it cost a lot more.

 

Actually, I just forgot to mention ... Sigma says they will change the DP1 specification and one Japanese site claimed we shall see the new spec. sheet this week. Perhaps your wish could come true.

[sdai]

I'll just add in a comment which I've just made elsewhere on the forum - that I'd love to see a minature (ideally pocket sized) lightweight high performance compact, preferably with interchangeable lenses

 

A pocket size high performance fixed lens camera is quite possible and that's exactly what the DP1 can do ... but I doubt an interchangeable lens compact model would happen, not because it's technically not feasible, but then you'll probably develop a mini system including 2 or 3 interchangeable lenses to support it, right?

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[DaveSee]

Fiddle about with 4:5 and one might suggest they target Alpa and, more importantly, the Fuji GX680 type systems... as photogs have image repro on their plate, if Leica were to adopt a larger sensor, shoot BIG

 

The M8's swell, but there was gold in that form-factor's lenses... split the difference, and leave SLRs to Canikon... take on the once known "medium" format, now that it too has sapped "still life" ad revenues from 4x5 rigs.

 

With the latest prattle about Ricoh's cams on /this/ site (promoting another site, notwithstanding), the M8 has its place, regardless later "fixes"... why wander off profits with just another SLR? Leave Ricoh with the P&S/Tri-X boomers(a US age associated term for those about to retire), hack a bit on M8 f/w for AWB and JPEG shooters, and, with another rig entirely, give pros great glass with a body that is tethered and flexible(literally). To wit, if it will be larger than an M8, it best bring a bit more than an SLR full-frame rig, regardless the glass.

 

rgds,

Dave

[zapp]

Ok, it's time for a workout at the gym ... before I go, please allow me to start something for fun.

 

Future products lineup from Leica ... based on rumors, hearsays and pure speculations:

 

Top tier: R10, 4:5 aspect ratio, 28x35mm, 21MP, 8000-10000USD range (ok, this is my wild guess )

2nd tier: M9, 35mm full frame, 17MP, 5000-6000 USD range (I'm quite positive on this one ... )

3rd tier: M8-2, 1.33x sensor, 10MP, 3000-4000 USD range ... an improved M8. (again, this is my guess)

next tier: a rebadged Sigma DP-1

 

What's missing in your opinion? what shouldn't exist?

 

See you all later.

 

P/S. Some background readings ... the link was first provided by forum member Venkeman.

 

Drei-Stufen-Plan für Leica - Nachrichten welt_print - WELT ONLINE

 

Your background reading material does not support your wild guesses. The M ideas are obvious, just a matter of how soon can Leica deliver, the R guess is interesting, but we will have to see. You can not rebadge any camera at will just because you want to see a red dot on it.