SL3 vs. SL2-S for Filming

[Kim Schwaner]

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Even though I am familiar with the specs at least to a certain extend there seems to be very little information available comparing video quality between the mentioned SL2s and SL3. I was recently asked to shoot some footage at a soccer match in a stadium here in Germany and ended up using an SL2-S on loan. The footage I took with an M-Mount adapter in SLog 4K ProRes turned out amazingly good and I was even surprised about how good the stabilizer worked even using a 90mm Elmarit handheld. 

Since I am currently on the SL3 waiting list but needed to continue with the project I now bought an SL2-S and plan to at least use it until my SL3 arrives. What concerns me now, though, is the question if it even makes sense for me to get the SL3 for this use case. From what I understand, lower mp sensors are better for video and also that readout speed of the sensor is important regarding rolling shutter. What I also understand is that the SL3 will have a 1.3 magnification in video making my adapted lenses longer in focal length. Is that also true for the SL2s?

To wrap things up: For a person primarily interested in shooting video with adapted M-Lenses in 4K is there even an improvement to be achieved by upgrading to an SL2?

Thank you and sorry for the longish text.

[jaapv]

I think that the LUMIX S5iiX would be a better choice for you. The only drawback would be slightly less corner performance for M wideangle lenses but I doubt whether that is relevant for video. 

[BernardC]

14 hours ago, Kim Schwaner said:

What I also understand is that the SL3 will have a 1.3 magnification in video making my adapted lenses longer in focal length. Is that also true for the SL2s?

Both cameras give you the option of shooting "full frame" or "Super 35". The later is close to APS-C size, so roughly a 1.5x crop.

14 hours ago, Kim Schwaner said:

To wrap things up: For a person primarily interested in shooting video with adapted M-Lenses in 4K is there even an improvement to be achieved by upgrading to an SL2?

Did you mean SL3? Either way, the answer is no. The SL2-S is Leica's best video platform right now. If I was you, I would save the money you had set aside for an SL3, and spend it on a more video-centred L-mount camera, like the Lumix S2H, Lumix S5ii, or either of the BlackMagic cameras that take L-mount lenses.

The SL3 is a very good camera, but its strength is in high-resolution still photography, not in video.

[Photoworks]

Every camera is different, SL2, SL2-s and SL3

they have all different formats and resolutions. SL2-s is good in low light, but does not have any open gate. SL2 has open-gate and you will find these two cameras still have a crop. You can see it if you switch from photo to video.

The SL3 has a bigger crop and it is signigficant. I think it is only a problem if you are trying to do hybrid shooting, Photo and video with one camera.

SL3 still offers improvements over the other two SLs.

• Faster cards (no more stopping from SD card Limitations)
• External battery over USB, this was always a challenge on SL2-s as the battery will stop the recording for low power. Bigger batteries and the Dummy battery solve this a little.
• Time code. this is actually a live saver in NYC, where the radio frequency are so busy that dropouts are guaranteed, have a lab that records and TC Sync is the solution.
• AFc is actually usable in video. Lens dependent.
• easy vertical video, better on screen info
• in CINE mode the ISO wheel is very useful 
• FULL TIME MF magnification when recording
• gimble focus control

 

there are bugs that need to be cleaned out, even in video mode

[Kim Schwaner]

17 hours ago, jaapv said:

I think that the LUMIX S5iiX would be a better choice for you. The only drawback would be slightly less corner performance for M wideangle lenses but I doubt whether that is relevant for video. 

Thank you very much for your advice. M-Lens-Perfomance and shooting experience mean so much to me that I will prefer a Leica solution. Coming from Sony I am a little unwilling to deal with a new UI UX.

 

3 hours ago, BernardC said:

Both cameras give you the option of shooting "full frame" or "Super 35". The later is close to APS-C size, so roughly a 1.5x crop.

Did you mean SL3? Either way, the answer is no. The SL2-S is Leica's best video platform right now. If I was you, I would save the money you had set aside for an SL3, and spend it on a more video-centred L-mount camera, like the Lumix S2H, Lumix S5ii, or either of the BlackMagic cameras that take L-mount lenses.

The SL3 is a very good camera, but its strength is in high-resolution still photography, not in video.

So sorry for making a typing mistake in my main question. Yes - you are correct: I did mean the SL3. It feels very helpful to receive similar and in-tune-advice. My choice does involve more than pure rational reasons, I suppose, though. For High Resolution Photos I simply love the weight and form-benefits of shooting my M11. I think I will do as advised and keep the SL2-S as a video-companion to my M-System and wait with the upgrade until it is clear if a SL-3 will emerge. 

Thank you!

1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

Every camera is different, SL2, SL2-s and SL3

they have all different formats and resolutions. SL2-s is good in low light, but does not have any open gate. SL2 has open-gate and you will find these two cameras still have a crop. You can see it if you switch from photo to video.

The SL3 has a bigger crop and it is signigficant. I think it is only a problem if you are trying to do hybrid shooting, Photo and video with one camera.

SL3 still offers improvements over the other two SLs.

• Faster cards (no more stopping from SD card Limitations)
• External battery over USB, this was always a challenge on SL2-s as the battery will stop the recording for low power. Bigger batteries and the Dummy battery solve this a little.
• Time code. this is actually a live saver in NYC, where the radio frequency are so busy that dropouts are guaranteed, have a lab that records and TC Sync is the solution.
• AFc is actually usable in video. Lens dependent.
• easy vertical video, better on screen info
• in CINE mode the ISO wheel is very useful 
• FULL TIME MF magnification when recording
• gimble focus control

there are bugs that need to be cleaned out, even in video mode

Thank you very much for the detailed and interesting points here – exactly the stuff that is really hard to find and mostly absent from longish videos on YouTube. Some features are compelling and do seem to be a potential big advantage (Gimbal focus, Full-Time magnifiaciton, TC while others, like the crop, really feel like a disadvantage. Readout speed - rolling shutter - is another issue and am not sure how the comparison really is.  I think - as stated above - I will continue to work with the still new to me Sl2-S until I can make a fully educated decision. Will try and organise a real world 4K 25 4:2:2 comparison with my lenses and continue my journey. 

Thanks again for your time. Very much appreciated!

[LocalHero1953]

4 hours ago, Photoworks said:

• Faster cards (no more stopping from SD card Limitations)
• External battery over USB, this was always a challenge on SL2-s as the battery will stop the recording for low power. Bigger batteries and the Dummy battery solve this a little.

I have no trouble with the SL2-S with Sandisk Extreme Pro 300mb/s V90 in 128Gb or 256Gb, C4K ALL-I at 25fps - I can't answer for higher frame rates.

I have had no trouble with mains power and a simple wall socket to USB cable. The battery level drops very slowly - still plenty after a couple of hours. I tried it with an intervening Anker multi USB port, and it randomly decided not to charge. 

And for clarity, the SL2-S is full frame/no crop for C4K at 25fps ALL-I into .mov files on SD cards. Drop into .mp4 and 50fps and the crop goes to APSC or equivalent.

Edited May 14, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[Photoworks]

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1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I have no trouble with the SL2-S with Sandisk Extreme Pro 300mb/s V90 in 128Gb or 256Gb, C4K ALL-I at 25fps - I can't answer for higher frame rates.

I have had no trouble with mains power and a simple wall socket to USB cable. The battery level drops very slowly - still plenty after a couple of hours. I tried it with an intervening Anker multi USB port, and it randomly decided not to charge. 

And for clarity, the SL2-S is full frame/no crop for C4K at 25fps ALL-I into .mov files on SD cards. Drop into .mp4 and 50fps and the crop goes to APSC or equivalent.

The difference is that all frame rates and resolutions can now to SD+HDMI , all resolutions is to card.
In many settings the SL2s you can do C4K only on SD or HDMI

SL3 has now 10 bit at 600Mbps, SL2s only up to 400
You can now do C4K 59.94FPS 10Bit 4.2.2 at 600Mbps to card and HDMI in full frame

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

And for clarity, the SL2-S is full frame

in the specs it is 35mm, but have you tried switching from video to photo and see how much get cut of the sides?

Edited May 14, 2024 by Photoworks

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, Photoworks said:

in the specs it is 35mm, but have you tried switching from video to photo and see how much get cut of the sides?

Yes, I did it just before my last post - to test my recollection - and couldn't see a difference with the settings I quoted. It was different at 50fps and .mp4. I will check again (my sanity demands it).

Edit: checked, on a tripod. No difference between photo and video field of view. 

Edited May 14, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[LocalHero1953]

For my video usage, the SL2-S does almost all I need. I don’t (yet) see a real need for faster than 24-30 fps or more than 4K. I really do want full frame: my widest lens is the SEM 18, which is ‘27’ in crop, and I sometimes need wider than this. I don’t want to build a rig around what is a versatile smallish (by video standards) camera, so I want to record in camera (SD or CFe). What is missing is internal ProRes or BRAW. And a tilt screen would be nice for when I put the camera on a stabiliser, or just hold it low. I have the BMCC6K in L-mount that does all this, but is bigger than the SL2-S - a bit big for my stabiliser. 

Looking forward to the SL3-S!

Edited May 14, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[Geoff C. Bassett]

I actually love the SL2 for it's faster readout, but the SL2s is a better video camera overall. 

I was not happy with the SL3 when I tested it. 1080p is the only option when you want a full sensor width image and the 8K and 4K modes both have crops and horrific rolling shutter. 

SL2s is their best video camera currently. 

[jaapv]

But no Leica can shoot open gate, which more video biased hybrid cameras will. 

[Photoworks]

17 minutes ago, jaapv said:

But no Leica can shoot open gate, which more video biased hybrid cameras will. 

SL2 has 5K open gate

[Geoff C. Bassett]

32 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

SL2 has 5K open gate

I own the camera. It does not. The 5K mode is a Super35mm sized crop from the Full Frame sensor. It's similar size to the open gate on the ARRI Alexa, but in correct terminology it is not "open gate" because it's not using the entire sensor.

[Photoworks]

11 hours ago, Geoff C. Bassett said:

I own the camera. It does not. The 5K mode is a Super35mm sized crop from the Full Frame sensor. It's similar size to the open gate on the ARRI Alexa, but in correct terminology it is not "open gate" because it's not using the entire sensor.

I never noticed, thank you

it makes sense since it is made for anamorphic lenses.

[TheBearShooter]

People suggesting you get a lumix camera are nuts and don’t understand why somebody would opt for a Leica camera and lenses. If you’re opting for Leica it’s for the colour science and character. I’ve used all the cameras on the L mount alliance. LUMIX can be good, but compared to Blackmagic the colour science, character and dynamic range is absolute trash. The gentle shadow to highlight rolloff of Blackmagic is incredible. So if you were actually willing to go to another system, that would be the one I’d suggest. Shooting in Braw means there’s so much data you can easily colour match to Leica in post.

The Sigma FP is another L mount camera system with amazing colour science. Obviously same with Leica. Whereas LUMIX still has that awful red hue added to skin tone that you see in consumer stills cameras that make shooting in warm lighting a nightmare.

So I would stick with the SL2-S if you’re happy with it. And only upgrade if it’s to a camera with a higher bit depth. Don’t fall for the SL3 shooting 8k. You don’t need it. There’s a reason Arri has been at the top of the camera game for decades despite only recently moving to 4K. They focused on dynamic range, shadow to highlight rolloff and colour science. Those are the things that make a beautiful image, not resolution, autofocus, global shutter etc.

[TheBearShooter]

On 5/15/2024 at 10:07 AM, jaapv said:

But no Leica can shoot open gate, which more video biased hybrid cameras will. 

You won’t need open gate.

[jaapv]

I don’t-but video/film makers seem to like it. 

[LocalHero1953]

23 minutes ago, TheBearShooter said:

You won’t need open gate.

There's a practical reason for us hybrid shooters: I have the SL2-S for stills and occasional video, and the Blackmagic CC6K for video. When planning a video recording and selecting a lens for a stage performance, I find it handy to know that, say, the Apo 35SL will show the same view in video as it does in stills. I don't need open gate, but my mind finds it easier.

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, TheBearShooter said:

You won’t need open gate.

The main benefit of open gate is that it makes it easier to extract 16:9 vertical for social media. You don't need to crop as tightly from the centre of your image because you have a bit more image at the top and bottom. The other use is when you are shooting anamorphics.

The downside is that it's a waste of creative energy if you are shooting for 16:9 (UHD video). Sometimes it's better not to "protect for" another format that you are not going to use, even if it makes you feel all "Hollywood" to see a boom mike at the top of the frame in the playback monitor.

 

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[Photoworks]

an SL3-s with opengate that does not crop the sensor would be great!

and let's add IBIS setting for anaphoric lenses.

4 hours ago, TheBearShooter said:

LUMIX can be good, but compared to Blackmagic the colour science, character and dynamic range is absolute trash. The gentle shadow to highlight rolloff of Blackmagic is incredible. So if you were actually willing to go to another system, that would be the one I’d suggest. Shooting in Braw means there’s so much data you can easily colour match to Leica in post.

considering that there is not one camera for every use, saying that Blackmagic is better is not always true. Look at the beautiful rolloff and please ignore the camera shake.