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[jerzy]

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vor 11 Stunden schrieb willeica:

nterestingly, when the Reid design appeared it was based on the pre-war Leicas and not the post-war designs from the IIIc onwards. One must assume that they could have had access to the drawings for the IIIc in 1946. 

drawing shows war-time IIIc. Internal number 42215 is IIIc, one can recognize the step under A/R lever, die cast, and other details specific to IIIc type 1 (stepper)

[Anbaric]

1 hour ago, jerzy said:

drawing shows war-time IIIc. Internal number 42215 is IIIc, one can recognize the step under A/R lever, die cast, and other details specific to IIIc type 1 (stepper)

Maybe Reid also mislabelled their copy of the IIIb drawing 'IIIc' and, consistent with William's Monty Python comparison, made the wrong camera by mistake! 🙂

[derleicaman]

4 hours ago, alan mcfall said:

The Stockler booklet may occur in two forms. On the left is the cover of the 5 x 8.5 inch booklet, interesting it is not just the leica school but also the "research lab". In the middle is another booklet with a notation "Not to be sold-Published by Seventh United States Army", with the second page on the right from Wilhelm Schiess, Photo instructor,  I & E(?) School, Special Troops, again Seventh Army. Has anyone ever hear of Wilhelm Schiess?  The version on the right is 28 pages with many more photos.  I see now, the army version says "Labor" and the "Lab." has a period and may be an abreviation for Labor. The photo of the woman with the Leica is the cover page of the army version.

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Hello Alan, When they are speaking of Labor, this means Laboratory in German. Lab. would be the abbreviation. In a photo application, Labor would also refer to the photo lab.

[willeica]

1 hour ago, Anbaric said:

Maybe Reid also mislabelled their copy of the IIIb drawing 'IIIc' and, consistent with William's Monty Python comparison, made the wrong camera by mistake! 🙂

I think that the difficulties with the die-casting may have been the significant factor on the actual production front. However, based on Tim Goldsmith's interpretation of the interviews with Reid staff, Monty Python was never too far away, particularly with a leader like 'Major' Reid. I don't want to upset anyone, but Sir Kenneth Corfield was not too far behind on this score. The whole Ballymoney, County Antrim escapade with the 'machinists' from the linen/shirt industry in Belfast , women with diamond engagement rings assembling glass pressure plates and then Guinness closing the camera production to make beer barrels while Sir Kenneth was away at a camera fair in Germany, has many comedic moments. They make Leitz seem boring by comparison, but Leitz/Leica actually survived, despite the outcome of WWII.

To the Victors the Spoils? I won't follow up with 'Made in Occupied Japan' , but I could 😀.

William 

[Gary Schulz]

7 hours ago, Anbaric said:

I see a 1946 version of that advertised for sale (perhaps it became an official publication) but I don't know if it's generally available - I think it would be worth scanning the whole thing if possible. On the author:

'The name of Heinrich Stöckler will be familiar to most Leica enthusiasts and readers of early Leica literature. He went to Leitz Wetzlar in 1929, set up a department for instruction in the then “new miniature” photography techniques and eventually became head of The Leica School. In 1938 and 1939 he wrote two articles on “2-bath” film processing for “Leica News and Technique”. In 1947 he went on to become the first editor of “Leica Fotografie International”… a position he held until 1973.'

I will add this to the list of material to scan so we have a complete record of it.  As William pointed out, I too was a little surprised at the date of this document.  Perhaps this is just an early draft or first pass for this particular paper...

[beoon]

15 hours ago, Anbaric said:

Maybe Reid also mislabelled their copy of the IIIb drawing 'IIIc' and, consistent with William's Monty Python comparison, made the wrong camera by mistake! 🙂

I have had the paper copy of the drawing in question for over 30 years, rolled up in a cardboard tube, only to be found again recently. The question I would like to ask is this, what cameras did Reid actually make and what Leica(s) were they based on?

I am not familiar with their cameras & model range.

Edited May 7, 2024 by beoon

[Anbaric]

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34 minutes ago, beoon said:

I have had the paper copy of the drawing in question for over 30 years, rolled up in a cardboard tube, only to be found again recently. The question I would like to ask is this, what cameras did Reid actually make and what Leica(s) were they based on?

I am not familiar with their cameras & model range.

There's a summary here:

https://www.pacificrimcamera.com/pp/reid1and3.htm

and some more information here:

https://vintagecameras.wixsite.com/photohistory/reid3b

The Reid III was a close copy of the Leica IIIb rather than the IIIc (I was joking about there being a mix up, though it does seem odd that the model in the drawing has been identified by @jerzy as a IIIc rather than a IIIb). When the SIOP team visited the factory just after the war, one of their tasks was to obtain drawings for both the IIIb and the IIIc, though only the IIIc was being made at the time and they regarded it as a superior engineering job. Why Reid then copied the older IIIb rather than the IIIc is something of a mystery, though the reliance of the IIIc on die castings that even Leitz outsourced to a specialist factory might have been a significant factor. The IIIb also apparently took less time to assemble than the IIIc, 29 hours rather than 33 hours at the Leitz factory. Reid might have just thought it was easier all round to go with a IIIb copy.

Edited May 7, 2024 by Anbaric

[Anbaric]

20 hours ago, alan mcfall said:

The Stockler booklet may occur in two forms. On the left is the cover of the 5 x 8.5 inch booklet, interesting it is not just the leica school but also the "research lab". In the middle is another booklet with a notation "Not to be sold-Published by Seventh United States Army", with the second page on the right from Wilhelm Schiess, Photo instructor,  I & E(?) School, Special Troops, again Seventh Army. Has anyone ever hear of Wilhelm Schiess?  The version on the right is 28 pages with many more photos.  I see now, the army version says "Labor" and the "Lab." has a period and may be an abreviation for Labor. The photo of the woman with the Leica is the cover page of the army version.

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I'm not seeing the images here - not sure if this is at my end or yours or a forum issue like we had a few days ago.

[willeica]

2 hours ago, beoon said:

I am not familiar with their cameras & model range.

See the YouTube videos by Tim Goldsmith which I posted above. These will tell you everything you need to know about Reids and more. I can summarise them in one sentence. Nice to look at and handle, but not so easy to repair.

William 

[derleicaman]

Here is a picture of Ernst Leitz III with a GI in the Hausertor Montage for binoculars.  I would put this photo as late March to mid-April 1945. Wetzlar was liberated on March 29th. The GI is dressed in combat gear, and I don't think he was part of the contingent that Lt. Snyder and Gary's uncle T5 Edward Hickman was part of. They would have been dressed differently in regular fatigues, not in combat gear. On examining the invoices Gary provided, the earliest dates to November 1945. Looking at the notebook pages, I see an entry to the Hausetor (sic), Building 1, First Floor, where parts for Lieca (sic) cameras are listed. All very interesting. Looking forward to seeing the rest of  the notes! Not sure where Gary's uncle would have stayed in Wetzlar, but a good guess would have been the Lahn Kaserne just down the road from the Leitz Factory. It is still there today as well.

I am also showing two photos here of the first US GI's of the 99th US Infantry Division entering Wetzlar over the Lahn on March 29, 1945. This is the same Lahnbrücke you can cross over today. The next picture shows the US M18 Tank Destroyers temporarily halted on the Ernst Leitz Strasse in front of the Leitz Hochhauser.

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[jerzy]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Anbaric:

it does seem odd that the model in the drawing has been identified by @jerzy as a IIIc rather than a IIIb

just in case someone is interested in technical details I may prepare over the weekend justification for my statement with listing all details that are unique to IIIc type 1

[Anbaric]

1 hour ago, jerzy said:

just in case someone is interested in technical details I may prepare over the weekend justification for my statement with listing all details that are unique to IIIc type 1

Even on its own, the 'step' looks pretty conclusive now you've pointed it out! The 42215 internal model number also came up in the previous discussion of IIId #360001 (I guess Leitz regarded both wartime stepper cameras as variants of the same model, much like the later IIIf variants with and without self timers).

[jerzy]

back to Reid drawings shown by  Alan - they are almost 1to1 copy of Leitz drawing of prototype IIIc. Here are both to compare - left are Reid (received from Alan), the right ones I downloaded from LF, most probably published bei leicapasion or DDM (in German part). Layout identical, description changed. Notice the date on Leitz drawing - pre-production.

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