Why aren’t the SL APO primes more popular for filmmakers?

[AndrewGregory]

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Are there reasons other than cost?

I own the 50 apo SL and have tested it a bit with video on S5. I was pleased to notice the aperture changes smoothly when filming.

I want to get more into filmmaking, and though I would use additional lenses for photography as well, it would be easier to swallow the price for another apo prime or two, if I knew they would shine for my films. 
 

The whole set has the same filter size, nearly the same weight and size(easy swapping on rigs/gimbals), smooth aperture, image quality (as good as Leica cine lenses??) yet it seems no one is using them for films?

Especially with the video autofocus capability now in the s5ii camera, I’m very intrigued, and curious as to why I’ve had such a hard time finding video content shot on these lenses?

[jaapv]

Well, film makers who are into the highest level of quality might prefer Leitz Cine lenses.  Not intended for amateur or vlogger use and a bit more expensive.  For the quality of lower level film making, Sigma or Panasonic and second tier Leica lenses are already of more than sufficient  quality. In my view the APO lenses are really for those who don't mind paying for those last two or three percent points in photographic IQ.

https://www.leitz-cine.com/

[tomasis7]

you need to use the cine focus mechanism. There are some cine lenses re-made from old SLR lenses like Canon. Re-housing is very common. 

 

[LocalHero1953]

I can think of two reasons. No manual aperture ring (clicked or not) and the nonlinear focus by wire. I have to set my lenses to linear focus on my SL2-S before mounting it on my BM cinema Camera 6K. 

Neither issue makes the lenses unusable, but irritating workarounds are needed, or just using them in specific use cases. 

Edited April 24, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[Photoworks]

Opticly you can say they are very good.

I use them on the SL2 and SL3 for docs and social media videos, but after video compressions, you can't see the difference with other modern lenses.

The Focus ring is still, and not suitable for follow focus gear. the AF is better for video on the little non-APO lenses from Leica -Panasonic.

The APO lenses are not corrected for focus breathing, also many more manufacturers are implementing it in firmware these days.

The focus ring is activated by magnets, and I feel an initial resistance that does not make follow focus fluid.

 

[hansvons]

The APO primes are AF still lenses and not cine primes. Filmmakers want proper manual focus. And often they are looking for moody flares and other "issues" the APO primes deliberately don't provide. 

There’s a large market of cine lenses spanning from 100k and more (zooms) to 500 Euros (cheap Chinese glass). Most well-known TV shows and movies are shot on expensive cine glass that exceeds the APO price tag by a magnitude and is made by Zeiss, Cooke, Panavision and Leitz. 

For private projects, I use Leica R primes which are pretty good makeshift cine lenses. 

[AndrewGregory]

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On 4/24/2024 at 10:04 AM, jaapv said:

Well, film makers who are into the highest level of quality might prefer Leitz Cine lenses.  Not intended for amateur or vlogger use and a bit more expensive.  For the quality of lower level film making, Sigma or Panasonic and second tier Leica lenses are already of more than sufficient  quality. In my view the APO lenses are really for those who don't mind paying for those last two or three percent points in photographic IQ.

https://www.leitz-cine.com/

Zeiss offers cine lens line-ups, and yet the OTUS series (comparably priced to the leica SL apos) are incredibly popular among film makers, from small indie to larger operations. People go through the hassle of dealing with these massive clunky lenses, including having them modded by companies like duclos, because they want "uncompromising" IQ.

There is still a  massive price valley between the apo SL lenses and the Leitz cine series, especially since they can be had second hand for around 3k, and autofocus can be useful or preferred among small production or single operator crews.

There are tons of indie films being made on higher end lines such as g-master and RF lenses. I understand they are not in the same price category and the user-base is exponentially larger. But it shows modern higher end AF lenses have there place, and the APO SL series is basically at zero in this space as far as I can find. 

[AndrewGregory]

On 4/24/2024 at 2:34 PM, LocalHero1953 said:

I can think of two reasons. No manual aperture ring (clicked or not) and the nonlinear focus by wire. I have to set my lenses to linear focus on my SL2-S before mounting it on my BM cinema Camera 6K. 

Neither issue makes the lenses unusable, but irritating workarounds are needed, or just using them in specific use cases. 

That's wild the BM doesn't have the linder/non-linear switch option in-camera? Maybe with a firmware update. My S1R S5 have it. 

[BernardC]

4 minutes ago, AndrewGregory said:

Zeiss offers cine lens line-ups, and yet the OTUS series (comparably priced to the leica SL apos) are incredibly popular among film makers, from small indie to larger operations. People go through the hassle of dealing with these massive clunky lenses, including having them modded by companies like duclos, because they want "uncompromising" IQ.

There is still a  massive price valley between the apo SL lenses and the Leitz cine series, especially since they can be had second hand for around 3k, and autofocus can be useful or preferred among small production or single operator crews.

There are tons of indie films being made on higher end lines such as g-master and RF lenses. I understand they are not in the same price category and the user-base is exponentially larger. But it shows modern higher end AF lenses have there place, and the APO SL series is basically at zero in this space as far as I can find. 

There are essentially two types of cine lenses: those you buy, and those you rent. Zeiss competes in both categories, in fact they just released a new line of "affordable" cine lenses.

While I'm sure that some projects have been shot with Otus lenses, Zeiss's CP line (and now their Nano Primes) are much more popular with the indie crowd. Sigma's cine line competes in the same market, as do a bunch of other brands.

G-master and RF zooms tend to be more popular in the "reality TV" and corporate sphere, combined with matching Canon and Sony mid-tier camcorders. In that case the appeal is AF and low price. I can't say that I've seen many G-Master in-use, Sony shooters often prefer adapted EF lenses because they are sturdier, but that should change as Sony ups their game.

To answer your question: why don't we know of more shows shot with SL lenses? The main reason is the lack of cine cameras with L-mount. The S1r has been around a while, but Panasonic hasn't yet released an EVO or Varicam with L-mount. BlackMagic just released their first "production camera" with L-mount, but it's not at the top-end of their lineup.

Don't get me wrong, you can do a lot with a hybrid mirrorless camera, but there's a limit. Dedicated video cameras offer a lot of advantages once you get past the DIY sphere of film making. Mirrorless cameras need to be rigged with cages, extra batteries, external monitors, external drives, ND filters, XLR mic inputs, timecode, etc., in order to work efficiently in a production environment, whereas dedicated video cameras usually come with all of these features built-in.

[Geoff C. Bassett]

I used them extensively on a short this past weekend and loved the results. Like other have said, the lack of direct manual focus stops most pros for using them. I love the look so much though. 

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[oculaii]

On 4/28/2024 at 11:29 PM, Geoff C. Bassett said:

I used them extensively on a short this past weekend and loved the results. Like other have said, the lack of direct manual focus stops most pros for using them. I love the look so much though. 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Impressive, this is with the SL 35mm APO ?

After having tested a bunch of 50mm, including the 50mm GM 1.2 and SL Summilux I settled my choice on the 50mm S Pro.
But for 35mm and 75/90mm, I really like the look of the APO SL, the high contrast and overall rendering. Not sure yet if they can replace my 35mm and 85mm GM for some photo shoots, but for video, I think the APOs would be much better.

[Photoworks]

6 hours ago, oculaii said:

Impressive, this is with the SL 35mm APO ?

After having tested a bunch of 50mm, including the 50mm GM 1.2 and SL Summilux I settled my choice on the 50mm S Pro.
But for 35mm and 75/90mm, I really like the look of the APO SL, the high contrast and overall rendering. Not sure yet if they can replace my 35mm and 85mm GM for some photo shoots, but for video, I think the APOs would be much better.

I don't think it is good for video if you have to AF or MF

MF on the apo's is inconsistent, it is hard to start turning the focus gear, with manual or motor follow focus.

AFc is very slow reacting on the 35 APO, even setting the speed too fast, there are gaps where the SL3 does nothing.

Panasonic's Lenses stay on with AFc and just work.

I would think firmware can fix some of it, but not all the way.

[oculaii]

1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

I don't think it is good for video if you have to AF or MF

MF on the apo's is inconsistent, it is hard to start turning the focus gear, with manual or motor follow focus.

AFc is very slow reacting on the 35 APO, even setting the speed too fast, there are gaps where the SL3 does nothing.

Panasonic's Lenses stay on with AFc and just work.

I would think firmware can fix some of it, but not all the way.

Thank you for your input. On my A7IV, I don't like the stabilization and Sony still refuses to add Open Gate, this is why I need a good 35mm for my L cameras.
I already have the 35mm Sigma DG DN F2 but from what I've seen, I much prefer the rendering of the APO, do you know if the 35mm APO SL has acceptable AF-C on the S5II ?
AF-C is one of the reasons I kept the 50mm S Pro and not the 50mm Lux SL.

[Photoworks]

15 minutes ago, oculaii said:

Thank you for your input. On my A7IV, I don't like the stabilization and Sony still refuses to add Open Gate, this is why I need a good 35mm for my L cameras.
I already have the 35mm Sigma DG DN F2 but from what I've seen, I much prefer the rendering of the APO, do you know if the 35mm APO SL has acceptable AF-C on the S5II ?
AF-C is one of the reasons I kept the 50mm S Pro and not the 50mm Lux SL.

I don't have the S5II, only SL3 and SL2, so I can't speak on that.

But all SL APO lenses are slower focusing than the Panasonic S lenses. 
I only have the 35 -75 APO here, the 50 is in for service for 4 more months. I have the PANA 50 and 18 and some zooms from Leica and Sigma.

Typically the Panasonic S lenses are better opticly on 50 and up. Sigma is better in 24,35.  But that does not speak on AF performance. I remember the Sigma 35 1.4 was slower focusing than the Leica 35 APO, but that is normal.

Sigma is improving all the time, a new 24-70 will be out soon again which is better than the current one.

[oculaii]

55 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

I don't have the S5II, only SL3 and SL2, so I can't speak on that.

But all SL APO lenses are slower focusing than the Panasonic S lenses. 
I only have the 35 -75 APO here, the 50 is in for service for 4 more months. I have the PANA 50 and 18 and some zooms from Leica and Sigma.

Typically the Panasonic S lenses are better opticly on 50 and up. Sigma is better in 24,35.  But that does not speak on AF performance. I remember the Sigma 35 1.4 was slower focusing than the Leica 35 APO, but that is normal.

Sigma is improving all the time, a new 24-70 will be out soon again which is better than the current one.

I agree about the Lumix S 50 and 85, both are excellent, at least for the size/price.
But about AF-C performance, my 35mm DG DN F2 is very slow on my S5 and S1, it is however very fast on my S5II, it is why I have hope for the SL 35mm APO.

[Photoworks]

1 hour ago, oculaii said:

I agree about the Lumix S 50 and 85, both are excellent, at least for the size/price.
But about AF-C performance, my 35mm DG DN F2 is very slow on my S5 and S1, it is however very fast on my S5II, it is why I have hope for the SL 35mm APO.

35 APO has some focus breathing and AFc makes noise that can be picked up on camera mic

[oculaii]

17 hours ago, Photoworks said:

35 APO has some focus breathing and AFc makes noise that can be picked up on camera mic

Thank you for pointing out the AF-C noise.

[BernardC]

What are your goals with film making? It seems you want a set of primes with AF. That is an unusual but perfectly reasonable choice. Usually, people who want to shoot video with AF choose zooms, but primes might fit your own goals better.

I wouldn't worry that much about AF speed. If anything, you'll want to deliberately slow-down AF response in video because fast AF is distracting. There's a setting in the S5 menu to do that. Lens noise also shouldn't be a concern, because you wouldn't use the on-camera microphone as anything other than a guide track.

In your situation, I would be more concerned about mixing lenses that have a different look. This can make editing very difficult because your shots won't match. That means choosing a lens set from the same manufacturer, and from the same line in that manufacturer's catalog. Panasonic might be the least expensive option for that since they have an affordable lineup that goes from 18mm to 100mm. Sigma would also work, but be sure not to mix and match between their various options (Art, Contemporary, etc.). Leica's APO-SLs are the best-matched set, but they are much more expensive, and you might not want to use the sharpest lenses anyway.

[Geoff C. Bassett]

On 5/4/2024 at 2:31 AM, oculaii said:

Impressive, this is with the SL 35mm APO ?

After having tested a bunch of 50mm, including the 50mm GM 1.2 and SL Summilux I settled my choice on the 50mm S Pro.
But for 35mm and 75/90mm, I really like the look of the APO SL, the high contrast and overall rendering. Not sure yet if they can replace my 35mm and 85mm GM for some photo shoots, but for video, I think the APOs would be much better.

Both with the 35mm. 

I will say the Panasonic 50mm 1.4 is no slouch, and has excellent video AF.

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[oculaii]

36 minutes ago, Geoff C. Bassett said:

Both with the 35mm. 

I will say the Panasonic 50mm 1.4 is no slouch, and has excellent video AF.

I'm more and more interested by this 35mm.

Yes, the 50mm S Pro is one my favorite lens.