Guest Walt Posted November 30, 2007 Share #1 Posted November 30, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) The M8 shutter release feel and variability has been troubling to many users. The roughness of the release, the variability from shot to shot, and the variability between my two cameras (and those of others, some of whom find the release acceptable) has been a significant impediment to my use of the cameras. Mark has usefully suggested adjustment of the detent pressures. I am sure this helps, but it is unnecessary and, I believe, simply unloads some of the back pressure on a fundamentally problematic design and execution. Detent adjustment also requires removal of the top cover of the camera. The analysis and procedure illustrated in the following photographs produces an M4-caliber shutter release. It is extremely smooth and consistent, with subtle, smooth detents at the two detent positions. The parts finishing in my two cameras was extremely poor and entirely unworthy of an expensive, professional camera. Factory lubrication (of the shutter button tube) was inconsistent in one camera and almost absent in the other. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/39229-fixing-the-shutter-release/?do=findComment&comment=416097'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 30, 2007 Posted November 30, 2007 Hi Guest Walt, Take a look here Fixing the Shutter Release. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest Walt Posted November 30, 2007 Share #2 Posted November 30, 2007 Illustrations continued. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/39229-fixing-the-shutter-release/?do=findComment&comment=416100'>More sharing options...
michael friedberg Posted November 30, 2007 Share #3 Posted November 30, 2007 my compliments on your skills! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted November 30, 2007 Share #4 Posted November 30, 2007 Hi Walt, did you polish the inside of the finger rest tube or is it not necessary? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted November 30, 2007 Share #5 Posted November 30, 2007 Walt, First-rate analysis and presentation of the problem. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Ortego Posted November 30, 2007 Share #6 Posted November 30, 2007 Your last photo of the “finished” work clearly is more in line with a 5400-dollar camera. Otherwise, we’re stuck with the current “Susie Homemaker Oven” switch. Strange how low the bar can go with Leica~ Regards, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted November 30, 2007 Share #7 Posted November 30, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Interesting analysis, Walt. How did you get the switch off, and did you have to remove the top and bottom of the camera? Can you suggest a way for non-opticians to polish the parts? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Walt Posted November 30, 2007 Share #8 Posted November 30, 2007 Hi Walt, did you polish the inside of the finger rest tube or is it not necessary? Jeff Jeff- I did not think it was necessary and that seems to be the case. You don't want to increase clearances any more than you have to. They are already too high and this is the reason the parts cock under load. Smaller clearances would require much better finishing of the parts than Leica is doing. This part is cast, so finishing was required at the factory and they did a decent, if not good job. Walt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Walt Posted November 30, 2007 Share #9 Posted November 30, 2007 Interesting analysis, Walt. How did you get the switch off, and did you have to remove the top and bottom of the camera? Can you suggest a way for non-opticians to polish the parts? Carsten, As Mark previously illustrated, this entire assembly is removable from the top of the camera. The finger rest is rotated counterclockwise with a 5/8" Flexiclamp tool. The power switch is not removed, nor is the top cover. If you do it, be careful about the nylon washer on the top of the cable release plunger; it is likely to be stuck in the top of the ringer rest bore. This is necessary to seal the assembly against contamination through the cable release hole and for the proper length of the assembly. The shutter will not fire without it because the plunger is too short. The polishing really needs to be done on a lathe with magnification for viewing. I am sure there are micro machinists who would do this work very inexpensively. The polishing is a ten minute job. Walt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted December 1, 2007 Share #10 Posted December 1, 2007 Walt, I'm glad that you decided to post this. I'm sure there are people on this forum who have the skills and equipment to make this modification if they feel ot might be helpful for their particular camera. Great work and thank you. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted December 1, 2007 Share #11 Posted December 1, 2007 ...The parts finishing in my two cameras was extremely poor and entirely unworthy of an expensive, professional camera...... Walt - The above quote is a searing inditement of the M8 shutter release. Thank you for a fascinating thread. My gritty release is not a patch on my 30 year old long-retired Olympus OM1 or any other camera I have owned, I too want that smooth release you have have resolved for your M8, but I still feel too ham-fisted to risk trying. It appears from your evidence that Leica settled with a bodged shutter release, I would have thought that for the same effort they could have delivered a fabulous one. The usual excuse that Leica are inexperienced with things digital has no credibility in this instance; it's not as if they haven't been making fabulous shutter releases for decades. I guess the smooth operation of the shutter release was no longer considered important to photographers; someone accepted their wage for passing poor components paid for by our purchase price and good will for Leica. Personally, I don't think that's good enough. This is one thread I hope is seen by Leica. ............... Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Walt Posted December 1, 2007 Share #12 Posted December 1, 2007 This is a corrected photograph for #2 in the original post. I had erroneously drawn two red lines and when I corrected them, I forgot to remove the original mistake. Sorry. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/39229-fixing-the-shutter-release/?do=findComment&comment=416221'>More sharing options...
ho_co Posted December 1, 2007 Share #13 Posted December 1, 2007 Walt--Excellently done! Seeing your dissection of the problem makes us Leica apologists feel a bit sick to the stomach, just as did seeing the rust on some parts of the rangefinder assembly in Mark's M8 disassembly thread. Thanks for the clear illustration of both the problem and the solution, and for the warning this kind of sleuthing should give Leica about trying to hide inappropriate production shortcuts. --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted December 5, 2007 Share #14 Posted December 5, 2007 Missed this thread, and, try as I might, I cannot see the same wear which Walt shows on his release, but it's clear the screw should not be grinding against the side of the slot like that. I measured the clearance between the finger rest tube and the shutter release tube - and it's about 0.03mm (0.0018") on each side. Walt, is yours similar (finger rest tube I/D is 5.01mm, shutter release tube O/D is 4.94mm according to my Mitutoyo calipers)? I'd certainly like to try the polishing and PTFE grease solution but do not have access to a jeweller's lathe. Would hand polishing with jeweller's rouge help things? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted December 5, 2007 Share #15 Posted December 5, 2007 Thanks to Walt for the dissection and Mark for the expert commentary... interesting. The only comment I'd add for those who have been depressed by the analsysis is that I have two M8s, and M7 and M6 - and I used to have M4 - and I find the M8 shutter release to be completely smooth, consistent and comparable to other Leicas I've owned and used. NO excuse for the poor QC on some instances, but it's not a universal failure ... is it possible that an early batch was let through without correct quality assurance? My bodies are January 2007 and April 2007 purchases in the UK. Is it possible that the message has already gotten through and the problem's been fixed for current M8s? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted December 5, 2007 Share #16 Posted December 5, 2007 Chris I wouldn't call the 2 you have current, Jan 07 is nearly 1 year ago, how time flies, and the april isn't that far behind. I have 2 also that came to me within 3 days of each other in early June, although the serial # are far apart. The chrome one came directly from Leica NJ as a replacement for my original, earlier serial #, and the black from B&H and is presently in NJ, later serial #. So I can't try one against the other but after just lubing the chrome shutter works I can feel the difference. As to the M8 being like film M cameras I don't think that is ever going to happen. One reason is all the stops that have to be in place for a digital capture camera. One to wake the camera from a sleep mode and actuate the meter if it is off. One to lock the exposure, unless there is another separate button for that and I for one would not care for that, and another stop/release point to actually fire the shutter. Never used a M5/6/7 so I don't know how there shutter releases work but the M8 will never be like my M3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted December 5, 2007 Share #17 Posted December 5, 2007 ..... Is it possible that the message has already gotten through and the problem's been fixed for current M8s? Chris - My release is crunchy and gritty and way below the quality I need and expected; it's crudeness does affect my hand-held work. My camera [although pre-paid in Dec. 2006], arrived in May 2007. I'd be interested to fire a new camera to see if it is better than mine. ............ Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted December 5, 2007 Share #18 Posted December 5, 2007 Chris - My release is crunchy and gritty and way below the quality I need and expected; it's crudeness does affect my hand-held work. My camera [although pre-paid in Dec. 2006], arrived in May 2007. I'd be interested to fire a new camera to see if it is better than mine. ............ Chris Chris - I've pm'd you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Walt Posted December 5, 2007 Share #19 Posted December 5, 2007 Mark- I'm not sure what wear you're looking for and unable to see on your parts. The sides of the screw slot are obvious and in image seven of the original post there is some scuffing visible on the upper end of the shutter button tube. There is not much wear in these parts from a six month old camera other than that, just poor finishing. The surface of the shutter button tube in image 7 looks as it does because it left the factory more or less that way. Yes, your measurements are about the same as mine, but you refer to this clearance as "all around." There is no all around unless you are holding the shutter button tube centered in the finger rest tube. The minute parts are assembled and used, the clearance at one side is eliminated by anything other than perfectly vertical pressure on the shutter button and by the backload from the shutter switch, including the back pressure of the two detents. There is constant shifting of clearances back and forth during use, which I observed with trace dye on the parts. The only thing that might hold the two tubes straight is that the nipple at the bottom end of the cable release plunger rests in a cup on the shutter switch. But the shutter switch rod has even more lateral play in it that the shutter button tube has. So these parts cock against each other, raising local, variable, random pressures. Unless they are smooth, they bind. In a mechanism that is expected to operate with very light pressures over a short travel, this is all apparent in use. It doesn't at all help that the design specifies critical surfaces that are steel against light alloy in both of the problem areas. The retention screw against the screw slot is just bad design exacerbated by bad finishing. That screw is what prevents the shutter button tube from rotating through 360 degrees, though it's actual purpose is to retain the cable release plunger and shutter button tubes. Use of the shutter button is going to randomly put the screw against the slot edges and, given the design, these parts need to be well finished. The one thing that hasn't been discussed is the poor sealing of the interior of the camera from this mechanism. Debris and moisture that enters the cable release hole can collect inside the shutter button, but the soft nylon washer on top of the cable release plunger will prevent it from entering the camera--untill a cable release is used, at which point the whole load will be dropped right down on top of the switch and, through the openings around the switch cup, into the camera interior. So, I would not use a cable release without first blowing out the inside of the button and making sure it is dry. The area between the shutter release button and the finger rest is completely unsealed and any moisture or debris here has free access to the electronic switch and camera interior. On the polishing, I can't see how this could be done by hand. I did it on a lathe, under a microscope. Both the exterior surface of the shutter button tube and the screw head were polished down with a sapphire file and then 100K mesh (.25 micron) diamond compound. This didn't give a good polish, but it removed the high spots and smoothed them. A correct polish of the parts would have to start with oversized parts then polished down to correct tolerances. There is this constant push on the forum to turn every description into praise or criticism. I've tried to describe something here and it is something that, in my case, was a serious functional problem. I don't think Leica should be making things this way, but everyone should have his own feelings about it. That some shutter releases are fine and that some are not is simply a statement that Leica is not controlling the manufacturing processes. Walt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted December 5, 2007 Share #20 Posted December 5, 2007 Walt, the wear I was referring to was that on the sides of the screw retaining slot in your example. I do not see the corresponding wear on mine or that of the screw and that's after 10000 exposures. Seems clear there's too much variance from one camera to another. I'm certainly going to try polishing the parts and using a lubricant as you have described. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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