Why does a rangefinder allow.......

[GarethC]

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.....you to shoot at slower shutter speeds? I know, it's not an M8 question specifically.

 

Also, let's see how steady you are. Show us some photos using the steady hands. you ahve to won up to the true shutter speed though, no cheating.

[Brett Cambern]

The lack of a moving mirror helps keep the camera steadier.

[marknorton]

The conventional answer is that because there is less "stuff" moving around in a rangefinder camera, it's going to move around less itself.

 

That said, the M8 has the shutter lock which contributes both to the noise and to what is moving about. Arguably too, the crop factor of the M8 reduces the ability to hand-hold since you have to enlarge more to a given print size which will make the shakes more visible. So where the rule of thumb might have been 1/focal length (that is 1/90 second with a 90mm lens), it might now be 1/(1.33 * focal length), or 1/125 for the same lens.

 

Cameras with VR (Nikon's term) or equivalent take them into rangefinder territory. Nikon are currently claiming you can shoot their new 500mm VR lens at 1/60.

[Artorius]

The conventional answer is that because there is less "stuff" moving around in a rangefinder camera, it's going to move around less itself.

 

That said, the M8 has the shutter lock which contributes both to the noise and to what is moving about. Arguably too, the crop factor of the M8 reduces the ability to hand-hold since you have to enlarge more to a given print size which will make the shakes more visible.

 

Cameras with VR (Nikon's term) or equivalent take them into rangefinder territory. Nikon are currently claiming you can shoot their new 500mm VR lens at 1/60.

 

Do you know how heavy any Nilon glass weighs in at anything over 180mm? Without a monopod, you will be hard pressed to shoot anything hand held. Look at the guys at football games, long glass, IS, VR or whatever the name brand calls it, they are tripod/monopod mounted. My 80-200 VR wasen't capable of hand held at 200mm. Even my "Beast"(28-70) is only good down to about 1/60 on a regular basis. OTH with a Leica M, mounted with a 28mm f/1.9, I am able to get over 90% accuracy at 1/16. I could never do that with any of my Nikon DSLR's(D1h, D1x, D2h, or D2x), I was lucky to get 1/30-1/60 hand held. Trying to go lower requires you to lock up the mirror, but then you need a tripod. Even with my film M's, I can hold at 1/4, 1/8 on a regular basis.

Don't get me wrong, I still have SLR/DSLR's for those moments. I just know before I shoot what I will be using. ie; right gear for the job.

[psquared]

Cameras with VR (Nikon's term) or equivalent take them into rangefinder territory. Nikon are currently claiming you can shoot their new 500mm VR lens at 1/60.

 

Of course, there are those that will say that you don't need VR or IS to get a decent picture with a long lens at 1/60 s. (Doug, are you in the house? )

 

DMR + 800mm @ f/5.6 and 1/60 s on a tripod with Wimberley II, but not locked down in position.

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[psquared]

Getting back to the OP's question, I actually find that M8 isn't that much better at lower shutter speeds than my DMR. I think the larger size and the heavier weight of the R9/DMR + lens as well as the the location of the shutter release on the front of the grip (almost akin to squeezing a trigger on a gun) all work in my favor. Obviously YMMV. What really gets to me at ultra low speed is that the impact of my heart beating gets transmitted to the camera. Now if I can get my heart to skip a beat or two at will.

 

Here's a DMR shot (while the M8 was in Solms getting a new shutter) with 35-70 at f/2.8 and 1/6 s (ISO 400). It's not perfectly sharp, but the snapshot prints fine at 4x6.

 

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[psquared]

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OK, an M8 picture. Not a great one by any means, but I liked the advertising concept at the Los Angeles Auto Show.

 

M8 + 24/2.8 asph at f/2.8, 1/6 s, ISO 640

 

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[giordano]

Even my "Beast"(28-70) is only good down to about 1/60 on a regular basis. OTH with a Leica M, mounted with a 28mm f/1.9, I am able to get over 90% accuracy at 1/16. I could never do that with any of my Nikon DSLR's(D1h, D1x, D2h, or D2x), I was lucky to get 1/30-1/60 hand held. Trying to go lower requires you to lock up the mirror, but then you need a tripod. Even with my film M's, I can hold at 1/4, 1/8 on a regular basis.

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "over 90% accuracy". I routinely shoot around 1/15th with a 35mm lens on the M8, and while most of the pictures are sharp enough for the situation (e.g. jn : photos : Museums & Galleries- powered by SmugMug ) fewer than 10% are as sharp as they'd have been with a tripod or a shorter exposure. At 1/4 I need to lean against a wall, brace elbows on a table or otherwise steady myself to have a chance of getting something usable.

 

With a Nikon (film or digital) the proportion of usable shots always seems a bit lower than with an M and the same focal length and exposure time, but in my experience it's not a dramatic difference (though I don't own a 'Beast').

[festgriff]

Hi

 

No great photo but shot at 1/15th of a second, hand held at 0 degrees with a wind. (Just so you get an idea of how numb my hands were) ISO 2500. M8, CV 40 mm at f2.0.

 

If I am having a good day I can routinely get my night shots "steady" at 1/8.

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[lars_bergquist]

One reason is that what gun experts call the lock time, i.e. the delay between releasing the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel – you will understand the analogy – is so short. This reaction time is not quite as short in the M8 as in an MP for example, but still shorter than in an SLR where the mirror must get out of the way before the shutter starts to move. And much can happen during that time.

 

The old man from the Age of the Colt Model P

[jonathan_r]

Nice website, John Nurick! Loved the school party at Swansea (which just happens to be 1/15 on a Nikon).

[JGW]

It's the lack of a mirror moving as has been mentioned. Also the Olympus E series cameras are very good for slow shutter speed work because of the small mirror in that design. This together with the in-built camera shake devise in the new E3 will be very interesting.

 

JGW.

[robertwright]

zeiss 25mm @1/4 sec f2.8 ISO160 pushed 2 stops and an elbow against wall...

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[giordano]

Nice website, John Nurick! Loved the school party at Swansea (which just happens to be 1/15 on a Nikon).

 

Thanks, Jonathan. I love the pic too, but it's not really sharp - and 1/15 at 12mm focal length should be easier than 1/15 at 35mm. The long exposure in that one was a matter of choice, not necessity: I wanted to blur the running children.

[butchhul]

Not to wander too far from the subject but.......

 

How sharp does it have to be?

 

I freely admit to a people, street, photojournalist bias. The choice of a rangefinder (Leica, Nikon, Contax, st al) has always been about having as little between myself and the subject as possible. As films became faster, lenses sharper, the advantages of the rangefinder multiplied, more situations became surmountable.

 

Technology continually adds amazing tools, VR lenses, Super zooms, better sensors, but I find it hard to imagine HC Bresson wandering around with a D3, VR 80-300, MacBook, Carbon Fiber Tripod and Domke vest with additional lenses.

 

Tha lack of a moving mirror, bright rangefinder optics a delightfully non-threatening demeanor makes the Leica a fantastic tool, slow or fast, for human interaction.

 

Hooray!

 

Many of the most beautiful and meaningful images to come out of photography are not "sharp", but the vision of the photographer was. The Leica (and many absent other rangefinders) celebrates that reality.

[earleygallery]

lllf at 1/5 sec.

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