Are vintage lenses losing their vintageness on the latest sensors

[costa43]

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I’ve always loved vintage lenses and have veered away from more modern designs until I picked up an m10r, now I am a fan of newer lenses more so than I have been in the past.  With the m11/m10r, I feel that even vintage lenses give you a very modern look. They lose some of the charm they gave us on the older sensors. It’s very subjective but I was interested in seeing if anyone else feels the same. 

Edited February 7, 2024 by costa43

[shirubadanieru]

Agree, did not enjoy them on the M10M or M11 as much as I did on the M9/M10/M9M/M240 cameras. They do lose their unique characteristics & just look sharp. Also on the M11 somehow pre asph lenses that never exhibited this on other sensors, on the M11 you see a lot of purple fringing with them. 
 

Anyway given I only shoot pre asph glass I sold the M11 within a month, and the M10M didn’t last too long either. 

[pippy]

Not even remotely. If anything modern sensors bring out more of the character of any given lens..

Why would it not? Think about it; a lens doesn't change its rendering whether used on a 1954 M3 or a 2024 M11.

If something 'Vintage' in character is considered to be missing from the files produced by the M11 in comparison to those images produced by an M3 from 70 years earlier then it doesn't have anything to do with the lens...

😺

Philip.

 

Edited February 8, 2024 by pippy

[mdg1371]

20 minutes ago, pippy said:

Not even remotely. If anything modern sensors bring out more of the character of any given lens..

Why would it not? Think about it; a lens doesn't change its rendering whether used on a 1954 M3 or a 2024 M11.

If something 'Vintage' in character is considered to be missing from the files produced by the M11 in comparison to those images produced by an M3 from 70 years earlier then it doesn't have anything to do with the lens...

😺

Philip.

 

Agreed. 
 

[Stevejack]

3 hours ago, costa43 said:

I’ve always loved vintage lenses and have veered away from more modern designs until I picked up an m10r, now I am a fan of newer lenses more so than I have been in the past.  With the m11/m10r, I feel that even vintage lenses give you a very modern look. They lose some of the charm they gave us on the older sensors. It’s very subjective but I was interested in seeing if anyone else feels the same. 

I enjoy using modern lenses on film cameras and vintage lenses on digital. I don't find that vintage lenses lose their character on new sensors at all.

What I do find is that modern sensors have far more dynamic range, and digital processing these days has the capability to 'correct' perceived flaws so some of the charm of vintage lenses can often be edited out during post processing (even unintentionally). 

I know editing is such a personal preference, but just because the sensor can record all of that dynamic range doesn't mean it needs to be shown in the final image. Blow those highlights out, crush the blacks, and don't use high shutter speeds and narrow apertures in low light even when the camera's high ISO performance is so good.

I think often times analysing why certain photographs taken back in the era when those vintage lenses were produced looked so interesting is important. It usually has less to do with the actual lens and more to do with the exposure settings and post processing. 

 

[sometimesmaybe]

2 hours ago, Stevejack said:

I enjoy using modern lenses on film cameras and vintage lenses on digital

same here.

i find the higher MP cameras with modern lenses give me too much fine detail.  

[Ecar]

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2 hours ago, Stevejack said:

What I do find is that modern sensors have far more dynamic range, and digital processing these days has the capability to 'correct' perceived flaws so some of the charm of vintage lenses can often be edited out during post processing (even unintentionally). 

+1

[Stevejack]

8 minutes ago, sometimesmaybe said:

same here.

i find the higher MP cameras with modern lenses give me too much fine detail.  

Lovely portraits on your insta - I was scrolling through your feed and actually recognised one of your models, then realised you were also from Australia 😄

Yeah, don't get me wrong I love the 50mm APO for things like studio work using the monochrom camera - the detail and clarity is exceptional and can really make a subject pop. But for environmental portraits in natural light I do often prefer the softness a vintage lens. There is a limit to how much you can tank the clarity, texture, and sharpness sliders in Lightroom to bring down the inherent bite of modern lenses.

I'll often find myself dragging the shutter a little to soften up a portrait if I'm using a modern lens. On the M11 shooting at 1/60 and below works pretty well to soften things up just enough to make a noticeable difference, or I'll shoot into the light a bit to bring some veiling flare across the image to reduce the contrast (easier to do when using the Visoflex).

[costa43]

5 hours ago, pippy said:

Not even remotely. If anything modern sensors bring out more of the character of any given lens..

Why would it not? Think about it; a lens doesn't change its rendering whether used on a 1954 M3 or a 2024 M11.

If something 'Vintage' in character is considered to be missing from the files produced by the M11 in comparison to those images produced by an M3 from 70 years earlier then it doesn't have anything to do with the lens...

😺

Philip.

 

Thanks Philip. Maybe I’ve not communicated my view very well in the original post as I agree that higher resolution sensors bring out more of the character  from vintage lenses.
 

I Just feel that modern sensors give you a modern look irrespective of the lens mounted. It’s just the overall look of the picture. Stevejack mentioned quite rightly that people edit out the quirks sometimes unintentionally in a previous post but I often find I try and edit some softness and good stuff back in!

 

 

[costa43]

35 minutes ago, sometimesmaybe said:

same here.

i find the higher MP cameras with modern lenses give me too much fine detail.  

I find that there is too much detail with any lens on modern sensors sometimes. I speak more so for pictures of people than landscape, where the extra detail is often welcome..

 

Edited February 8, 2024 by costa43

[costa43]

6 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

They do lose their unique characteristics & just look sharp

Yes, they all look sharp and you still have a more modern feel to the image that is more ‘hdr’ looking with people than what you got on older sensors. You can edit the colours to your liking but it’s hard to take that edge off I find. It’s hard for me to explain, I just see it.

[Stevejack]

46 minutes ago, costa43 said:

Yes, they all look sharp and you still have a more modern feel to the image that is more ‘hdr’ looking with people than what you got on older sensors. You can edit the colours to your liking but it’s hard to take that edge off I find. It’s hard for me to explain, I just see it.

I think there's a lot of people who just prefer a lower resolution image and cameras with less dynamic range, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. 

For people who hate the process of editing their images, preferring a straight out of camera Jpeg, I can absolutely see why the images produced on cameras after the M10 would be moving too far away from their ideal. 

I don't know that I'll ever argue that less information in a digital file is a bad thing, but I can absolutely see where it's just become a headache for a lot of photographers whose workflow isn't the same as mine.

[costa43]

3 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

I think there's a lot of people who just prefer a lower resolution image and cameras with less dynamic range, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. 

For people who hate the process of editing their images, preferring a straight out of camera Jpeg, I can absolutely see why the images produced on cameras after the M10 would be moving too far away from their ideal. 

I don't know that I'll ever argue that less information in a digital file is a bad thing, but I can absolutely see where it's just become a headache for a lot of photographers whose workflow isn't the same as mine.

I do think that the look and feel of the older sensors comes down to less dynamic range and lower mp more so than the colour profile that Leica,LR,C1 apply. I love modern sensors and the flexibility they give me in post but I just find that vintage lenses suit those old sensors a little better when you want a certain look irrespective of what is done in post. I’ve been through countless images on the m11 forum here and on Flickr etc and the vast majority have a more 4k rather than 720p feel. This is so subjective!

[250swb]

26 minutes ago, costa43 said:

 I’ve been through countless images on the m11 forum here and on Flickr etc and the vast majority have a more 4k rather than 720p feel. This is so subjective!

 There are an awful lot of people who simply want to demonstrate to everybody how their M11 works with an APO stuck on the front. That sums up their photography, and no they definitely don't have the time to do any post processing because why would they when their camera does all they want for them. It's the simplest type of photography to do. Putting a vintage lens on a digital camera in olden times they could get around any vulnerability about how the photo looks by 'comparing with film' or stating some other type of 'this is nearly as good as' comparison. Maybe only when the M13 has 120mp will the people still owning an M11 feel free enough of peer pressure to use an old Elmar or stick a pinhole on the front, until then nobody wants to explain to the watchers that they had an urge to throw off the shackles and be creative.

[LocalHero1953]

In answer to the OP's question: no, I don't see any difference that cannot be attributed simply to higher resolution.

Since this is a forum about photography, I will repeat the usual comment: pics or it didn't happen. Please show us examples of the same image taken on an old sensor and a new sensor, so we can see the difference. I can't do this: I only have one available digital sensor, that on the SL2-S. My older sensors are film. 

Which 'vintage' lenses are these? Designed for the film era? For the 18mp of the M9? Or only for those with higher res than 24mp?

Edited February 8, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[Alberti]

It is the opposite. The Vintage Lenses look beter with the hi-res sensors.

Take a look at this picture with a pre-1960 lens. And it is a 50mm Sonnar lens, of which people used to say ' Nay, no sharp, throw away.' 

My Summicron 35mm V1 gives moiré on the M10r so that implies that it out-resolves the sensor structure. To say differently: it proves it does not smear.

There is only one thing I found: the new generation sensors now also show the slightest tendency to 'grow' coma blobs on hig contrast light sources (naked Christmas led lamps). But hey, I find that attractive! 

[costa43]

22 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

In answer to the OP's question: no, I don't see any difference that cannot be attributed simply to higher resolution.

Since this is a forum about photography, I will repeat the usual comment: pics or it didn't happen. Please show us examples of the same image taken on an old sensor and a new sensor, so we can see the difference. I can't do this: I only have one available digital sensor, that on the SL2-S. My older sensors are film. 

Which 'vintage' lenses are these? Designed for the film era? For the 18mp of the M9? Or only for those with higher res than 24mp?

Hi Paul, that is the point I am trying to make i think, I love vintage lenses, I enjoy all cameras but it is the high resolution of the very latest models which render an image that I find less vintage by default.

You make a valid request. I'll send over some samples a little later on. I own the following vintage lenses. All bar the Nokton were released in the film era.

50mm Summilux v3

35mm Summilux v2

50mm f3.5 Elmar

35mm Canon f2 ltm

40mm Nokton (Not vintage but optical design is)

90mm Minolta f4

A fair few Russian lenses too.

I'm making it very clear that this is just what I see and from a technical viewpoint I really do understand that my modern sensor blows away my older sensor in every measurable metric.

 

[pgk]

Many 'vintage' lenses (you really need to define the era about which you are referring to) from the '50s and earlier have the characteristic of being centrally very sharp with a gradual fall off in resolution to the corners. This is one area where modern lenses have improved dramatically. I have yet to see a sensor which can make the corners of such lenses sharp - if they could then there would be little need for modern designs. Older wide-angles especially, such as the Super-Angulon, show this characteristic along with vignetting too. I shoot on lenses which vary from current aspherical designs to some designed in 1857 and very limited in terms of performance. And I do so on a variety of sensors. All the sensors show the characteristics of each lens; they cannot do otherwise because there is no way that they can do anything except record the image formed on the sensor and with older, non-coded lenses this is not processed in any way to deal with optical characteristics. So to answer your question, no, vintage lenses do not lose their vintageness on any sensor.

I would add though, that some subject matter will show up those characteristics better.

[costa43]

2 minutes ago, Alberti said:

It is the opposite. The Vintage Lenses look beter with the hi-res sensors.

Take a look at this picture with a pre-1960 lens. And it is a 50mm Sonnar lens, of which people used to say ' Nay, no sharp, throw away.' 

My Summicron 35mm V1 gives moiré on the M10r so that implies that it out-resolves the sensor structure. To say differently: it proves it does not smear.

There is only one thing I found: the new generation sensors now also show the slightest tendency to 'grow' coma blobs on hig contrast light sources (naked Christmas led lamps). But hey, I find that attractive! 

Hi Alberti, I agree that vintage lenses perform better on modern sensors, that is not in dispute. It's just about the look that the sensor gives.

That's a lovely picture and to me it looks modern, clean and beautiful. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Alberti]

Agree with pgk - but with a difference.

The corners of the old lenses are sharp in a different place. Some Leitz designs had it folding backward, some Japanese lenses towards you (which I like more, compositionally).