What Drives Leica Crazy Prices?

[ktmrider2]

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I have been a member of this crazy cult since 1975 with the purchase of a Leica CL.  I have owned every film M up to the M7, sometimes multiple bodies multiple times (M2) and even a couple digital bodies.  I have never understood the prices within the cult.  I got hooked on the viewfinder vice an SLR and for awhile Leica was the only game in town (like it is now).  

I presently shoot with a black chrome 50th anniversary M4 in mint condition.  I paid $3000 about seven years ago and have been offered $3000 on trade.  Currently, black chrome M4's are selling in the neighborhood of $4000-4500.  Chrome M4 bodies are selling $2000-2500 assuming the same condition and black paint M4's are going for over $10000 (and I don't care for the brassing unless I do it myself.  I am old enough to have done it to lots of black paint cameras in the 1960-1970's).

I was looking at the Leica AG website a few days ago and they have a black chrome 50th anniversary M4 in mint condition.  It is being offered by the Leica store in Vienna and Leica is asking 7300 Euros.  According to Leica, 1750 50th anniversary M4's were made.  So my question is why is the price double for the same camera, same finish, same rarity, same condition body as one I own?  It has been on their site for several months so their price may not be realistic.

I have been emailing Sam at Classic Connection (I purchased my camera from him) and he does not know why the camera from Leica Vienna has that price on it either.

Maybe Leica dealers and stores are experiencing the same phenomena as the tulip craze in Holland during the 1630's.  By the way, that craze lasted only three years and the craziness with Leicas has been going on a lot longer.

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[frame-it]

"What Drives Leica Crazy Prices?"

Humans

[Helge]

The more expensive model has been built in a very low volume, 1750 of the 50th anniversary M4 compared to maybe 20,000 to 30,000 of the regular model.

Today the demand for used Leica M is potentially 10 times compared to the time you purchased the 50th anniversary model.

Low supply and high demand drive prices, a completely normal economic behavior.

[LocalHero1953]

“The price of any commodity rises or falls by the proportion of the number of buyer and sellers”. (Some Considerations on the Consequences of the Lowering of Interest and the Raising of the Value of Money, John Locke, 1691)

[ktmrider2]

I am still trying to figure out why the 50th anniversary M4 on the Leica site is listed for 7300 Euros while I figure mine is worth about $4000 and they are in the same condition and are obviously the same age and rarity.  And I agree "humans" are the cause of the crazy prices, not that Leica owners are in a cult or anything.

 

[Cattoo]

16 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

“The price of any commodity rises or falls by the proportion of the number of buyer and sellers”. (Some Considerations on the Consequences of the Lowering of Interest and the Raising of the Value of Money, John Locke, 1691)

 

Well done indeed!

[69xchange]

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3 hours ago, ktmrider2 said:

I am still trying to figure out why the 50th anniversary M4 on the Leica site is listed for 7300 Euros while I figure mine is worth about $4000 and they are in the same condition and are obviously the same age and rarity.  And I agree "humans" are the cause of the crazy prices, not that Leica owners are in a cult or anything.

 

Dealers can set whatever price they want same with eBay, but is someone going to buy it? Probably not.

[adan]

On 1/24/2024 at 6:15 PM, ktmrider2 said:

I was looking at the Leica AG website a few days ago and they have a black chrome 50th anniversary M4 in mint condition.  It is being offered by the Leica store in Vienna and Leica is asking 7300 Euros.

Do you have a direct link to this Vienna "for sale" listing? Google keeps dumping me into the "Leica USA" site, which doesn't show the item mentioned.

I'd like to read "the fine print." Exactly what is included in the price.

EU pricing can be problematic if simply translated into dollars, due to currency variations and taxing and pricing policies.

...........

EDIT - Here's the same item from Japan - including original box, and documents. $6880 asking price

https://www.ebay.com/itm/314272446563?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28&srsltid=AfmBOoqVELZ-xv0n4wx3oynICr4_YoSoVaNWKnauPQwmhNx-ZsJGTiNF_hs

Do you know why Leica reintroduced the M6 camera? Because "classic" used M6's - $1400 seven years ago - began selling for up to three times that price about 18 months ago.

Hipster status symbols, some weird Covid effect, someone posted a viral film-M video on y**tube - who knows why?

Prices are ultimately set by the supply and demand - if someone is willing to pay $7300 for a 50-Jahre M4, then that is the market price. Just like stocks, or Corvettes, or anything else.

Edited January 26, 2024 by adan

[ironhorse]

Adan

try this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_dkr=1&iconV2Request=true&_blrs=recall_filtering&_ssn=www_leicashop_com&store_cat=0&store_name=leicashopvienna&_oac=1&_nkw=m4

[adan]

6 minutes ago, ironhorse said:

Adan

try this

👍 😁

[ktmrider2]

Using the link from iron horse, I see three or four other 50th anniversary M4's listed.  The price goes from 3300 to 3900 pounds and another lists for almost 6000 pounds.  So maybe 7200 euro is not so far off.  Obviously, there is a pretty good price spread.  And then we have the M4 black paint for 25,000 pounds!

No, there is nothing cult-like about Leica film cameras or their owners.  

I am thinking of selling mine and picking up a new MA next month in Hong Kong for $4200.  And my M4 has a working MR4 meter, original box and leather half case.  What a deal!  But I do not like the double frame lines in modern Leica film cameras.

And the only difference between my M4 and a regular black chrome M4 is a very small engraving on the front of the camera which says Leica 50 years or something like that.  My camera is in my closet in Anchorage while I am diving in the Philippines so I cannot pull it out to see the exact engraving.  Just more evidence of the cult.

 

Edited January 26, 2024 by ktmrider2

[Helge]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb ktmrider2:

I am still trying to figure out why the 50th anniversary M4 on the Leica site is listed for 7300 Euros while I figure mine is worth about $4000 and they are in the same condition and are obviously the same age and rarity.  And I agree "humans" are the cause of the crazy prices, not that Leica owners are in a cult or anything.

 

I do not think, this is such a secret, the demand has increased, potentially about 10 times since you purchased your camera. If Leica sells 10 times the number of analogue cameras compared to 2015, the overall demand must have increased dramatically. There is nothing really crazy or even difficult to understand, this is just economics.

[ktmrider2]

I have a Rolex Submariner I purchased in Singapore in 1980 for $320.  Market value now is over $10,000.  Go figure.  But a friend had purchased a blue/stainless steel Submariner in Vietnam in 1970 for $165.  Guess dollars were worth more back then.

Edited January 27, 2024 by ktmrider2

[Helge]

Am 26.1.2024 um 08:53 schrieb SuperPuppet:

Any attempt to apply logic to the situation is pointless, as there is no logic. The same can be said for horology, the Rolex brand comes to mind.

In saying that, it all becomes part of the rich fabric that comprises Leica ownership generally. It's nice to be part of the club. Wth all its idiosyncrasies.

It is exactly the opposite, it is pure (economical) logic behind it.

Prices just follow the proportion between supply and demand. The demand has obviously increased by a factor up to 10, the supply of used cameras is not only limited but even decreasing every year by several reasons (damage, loss, just been kept etc.). Once there is a major step-up in prices you usually see an increase in offers for a short time, dropping back soon to a value even lower than before.

There is neither magic nor any conspiracy behind it, just good old economics 😉

[Helge]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb ktmrider2:

I have a Rolex Submariner I purchased in Singapore in 1980 for $320.  Market value now is over $10,000.  Go figure.  But a friend had purchased a blue/stainless steel Submariner in Vietnam in 1970 for $165.  Guess dollars were worth more back then.

Don‘t compare the value of a (real) Rolex to the value of a Singapore Rolex 😀

[ktmrider2]

Believe me, it is a real Rolex.  It has been back to Rolex a couple times in the 43 years since purchase for cleaning.  I wear it daily and is my dive watch.  Although with the invention of dive computers, a dive watch really is not an essential piece of gear any longer.  I have several friends who purchased Rolexes at the same time from the same dealer (we were Marine pilots assigned to an aircraft carrier on a port call in Singapore).  None of them have ever told me their watches were fakes and I know some of them still have the watches.

I am not sure why people on this forum need to make snarky comments. I wonder if the one in the above photo is real.

Edited January 27, 2024 by ktmrider2

[Helge]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb ktmrider2:

Believe me, it is a real Rolex.  It has been back to Rolex a couple times in the 43 years since purchase for cleaning.  I wear it daily and is my dive watch.  Although with the invention of dive computers, a dive watch really is not an essential piece of gear any longer.  I have several friends who purchased Rolexes at the same time from the same dealer (we were Marine pilots assigned to an aircraft carrier on a port call in Singapore).  None of them have ever told me their watches were fakes and I know some of them still have the watches.

I am not sure why people on this forum need to make snarky comments. I wonder if the one in the above photo is real.

Good for you 😉

[Almizilero]

Am 25.1.2024 um 03:13 schrieb frame-it:

"What Drives Leica Crazy Prices?"

Humans

First answer, spot on. It's us. What we're (or enough of uns, anyway) willing to pay for the old stuff. Or the new stuff. Also, what we THINK it's worth. I usually buy used, but only from trusted stores. Still I keep a lookout on the forums for prices. Ususally, the private sellers are asking for more (or at least the same prices) than the actual stores. Why would I buy from them? At the store, I get a checked up item with at least a couple of month warranty. And I can send it back for a full refund if I don't like it. Why would I pay the same to a private seller who offers none of that? Yes, I hate that my SL2-S is worth almost 2.000 less now than when I bought it (new) last year. But were I to sell it, I still would have to bite the bullet and accept that loss. Also the SL lenses loose about 2.000 the moment you take them out of the store. M bodies and lenses seem to be a bit different overall.
I tried to negociate the price with a private seller pointing this out and it got real ugly real quick. So another reason to buy from stores.

 

Sorry, this drifted away from the main topic. But yeah, in the end, it's supply and demand. Leica is en vogue these days, so there are more and more people who are interested in the older stuff and willing to pay more to get it. I doubt the digital M bodies will be the same, even though used prices are pretty stable and one could basically use an M240 for a year with minimal loss or even a small profit. And with the lenses, one could make a pretty penny if one bought the right ones a couple of years ago.

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[Stuart Richardson]

If the question is about analog bodies, I think one reason is that interest in film has been fairly robust in the last few years, but we are receding ever farther from the production dates of the latest, best film cameras. In that sense, supply stopped and is shrinking, as there is no new production and cameras break and become unrepairable. Mamiya 7II prices and xpan prices are through the roof. I bought a mint used Xpan II and 45mm lens in 2003 or so for 1100 dollars. I recently saw one in much worse condition listed for 7000. I bought my Mamiya as a new demo from Adorama with the 80mm f4 for 2100 dollars in 2002. Now getting a kit like that in good condition is likely to set you back 5000. I think the same is true for most of the better film cameras...at least the ones that are still serviceable. In the case of Leica, prices have always been robust because the system is still actively produced and repaired, new lenses being introduced etc. Then of course there is the whole luxury good side of things, which is the primary reason Leica's cameras and lenses stay expensive. Reintroducing the M6 was a good idea for them because as noted, fashion pushed the price of that particular model way up, and there is very little difference between an MA or MP and an M6...all they needed to do was produce some parts they had already designed 40 years ago.

 

Edited January 27, 2024 by Stuart Richardson

[Helge]

vor 58 Minuten schrieb Stuart Richardson:

…

Reintroducing the M6 was a good idea for them because as noted, fashion pushed the price of that particular model way up, and there is very little difference between an MA or MP and an M6...all they needed to do was produce some parts they had already designed 40 years ago.

 

The price for the new M6 did go up by just a couple of 100€ since it had been introduced, so it is difficult what you talk about („…way up…“).

The prices for pretty much all used M cameras go up, because there is an explosion of demand.

Sure, Leica is expensive, but this is even in front of an exploding market still a small number they produce, and it is produced in Germany, and also here almost nobody works for free.😉