Len(ses)... In MY situation.

[AdjusterBrett]

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New to Leica - and I have a plethora of Fuji gear in the coming month (pilgrimage to one of the resale houses - probably have close to 300lbs of vintage I do not use, old film bodies, and 30lbs current fuji) - thereby I FEAR - I will get a fat house credit and likely buy something I do not need (SL or SL2S, or even the dark side of a rangefinder)...   Suffice to say - I LOVE my Fuji X-T4 because of the viewfinder - my X-T1 and X-T2 because of the layout for shooting vintage (quick and easy) - I set WB, adjust EV, Set the shutter and aperture - focus and off to the races...   Fuji was APS-C - good enough most of the time - but post purchase of a Panasonic S1 - it was like my eyes were 40 years old again and the high ISO performance - fuji was kicked to the curb.  Suffice to say - likely an SL in the future - and perhaps an SL2S (although I really don't need considering the S1).

A few days ago, I stumbled upon a TL2 - and have NOT put it down.  Don't understand it completely - but really liking it.  I do NOT have any Leica lenses (yet -LOL, and so it starts)...   I do have some L mounts - pan 50 1.8, pan 20-60, sig DG DN 105/2.8, Sig DG DN 100-400 (put that on just to see how ridiculous it looked - made me laugh) and a Voigt 40/1.4 classic I picked up for it (love the small size).   Both Panasonic lenses are light - the sigs are too big for regular use, and the Voigt I love.  That said I'm playing with buying something that will be autofocus.  I'm kicking myself - really hate the idea of buying an APS-C lens, as the next body will again be FF - but new toy deserves some attention.

Here is what I've read...

Leica TL 18 - nice but not overly impressive - and costly - even used about 700 delivered.

TL 23 - better - and often regarded as a go to here - it's even more expensive, 1200-1400 used.

TL 11-23 - highly regarded, but pricey - pushing 1400 with tax in the used market.

Alternatives

Sig DC DN 30/1.4 - can get it pretty cheap - under 300 new, under 200 used.

Sig DC DN 18-50 - 400ish new

Panasonic has several full Frame - they are NOT small - but they are all light (same as the 50 I have) - but alas, I really want something a little smaller or a little more versatile to reside on her (TL2)...

There are others - and I've been eyeing the sig DG DN 14-24 for a while (would use for work as well) - but that is BIG and HEAVY...

My issue with the cost of the TL lenses  - is they are approaching the cost of the SL lenses (remember - doomed to buy an SL sooner or later)...  I do NOT know how much bigger the SL 35 is.

On Fuji my two favorite lenses were the 90mm/2.0 (exceptional), and the viltrox 13mm/ 1.4 (FUN, although hated the rokinon 12mm) with an honorable mention to the 80mm macro (Irrelevant as manual focus - but used it all the time) and the Viltrox 75mm.  I offer this up to give perspective on the type of shooter.  I typically am NOT a zoom guy - I just lug around more lenses to cover the range (LOL)...  Usually shoot Wide for the event, then between 50 (vintage) through 100mm. for portraiture and candids.

Two notations...

I have a Sony RX1 - I passed on the Q for it - and for a single lens - I'm set in the 35mm range (not up for debate).  One day I could see myself having a Q - but for now - that 'slot' is taken - so I really do not need nor want the 35mm range for the TL2 (equivalent - so the 23 is a bit beaten up by this).  Unlike most - I RARELY carry just one camera - and hell, considering the weight of my S1 and a flash - I could carry four TL2 and still be ahead of the game - so usually the RX1 and the TL2 (and a lens or three) will be with me.  I even drag out my dinosaur (in digital terms) - my Sony R1 at least once a month and still LOVE what comes out the end of that - she is probably my only real zoom lens I've ever loved (APS-C on fixed Zeiss 24-120 equiv at 2.8-4.8).  Having and using an R1 is proof I do still have patience.

I would say 1/2 my stuff is indoors and all too often - in lower light or at least crappy light...   I am eagerly awaiting Godox to update the XproII-L to cover the TL2 (let me know if it works).  I have a vast collection of V1, AD100, AD200 and so on - and I've a few TT's I drag along with the RX1 - but really want to be able to do something with off-cam for the TL2.  The low light suggests I need to keep the aperture in the lower range.  The 11-23 has had much praise - but at 3.5 - it's getting pretty close to the line.

Please consider my ramblings a sign of my gushing enthusiasm and overthought...

I'm also up for any suggestions on buy some manual glass as well - but as much as my OLD eyes love to play with vintage and manual focus - I've learned to keep at least one native lens close buy (although the TL2 with the Panasonic 20-60 and the 50/1.8 struggles a bit in lower light)...

Do I bother with a native lens for the APS-C, or just buy into FF or Manual focus.

I did just order the Visoflex (020) for the TL2 in hopes its a bit better than the LCD on the back - for my OLD eyes...  Critical focus is like a three year old you are chasing and only occasionally catch by accident...

ANY advice / direction / thoughts would be appreciated...

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[dpitt]

Congratulations with your TL2. I have one for about 6 months now, and I love it as a lighter/smaller alternative to my SL(601). I find the EVF essential to use on any camera, because I do not like the iPhone way of taking pictures. As soon as you need reading glasses, I found that is really hard. And out in sunlight it it never works for me anyway.

My TL2 is mostly used with manual lenses. The M Summicron 35v3 makes for a very small package (50mm eq). My Elmarit 21 M works great too. I have the famous Summilux 35 TL. and recently got the Pana 20-60. Nothing wrong with the weight or even size of that, but just plain boring if you have plenty of M and R lenses. The Summilux 35 TL really blows it out of the water. I think you do not mind weight or size as much as I do, so IMHO that is the lens to get for. If you buy a SL2 later on, it will also serve on that without much regret, and you will still have 20 MP. I even use it on my SL from time to time and very much like what I see, even though it only leaves 10MP in cropped mode.

My TL2 has been intended for travel and as second camera to my M9. So it needs to be as compact as possible with enough IQ to not have regrets that I did not use the M9. That works only with the M lenses. The Summilux 35 TL is much too heavy and large to compete, but IQ would not be a problem at all. I would (and have) taken my 35-70 Macro R F 4.0 zoom. It is about the same size and weight but at least offers flexibility in FL. The jury is still out on the Panasonic 20-60. It needs a lot of PP to tweak out a decent result. My first picture with the 35 lux TL blew me away  even without any PP. I am now looking for a 28-70mm Vario-Elmar R  to replace the 20-60. Unfortunately, I sold mine years ago because the 35-70 R is better. But the 28mm would help with crop factor 1,5 and it was certainly better than the Pana 20-60.

I make sure that I use the  magnification aid for MF and then I do not mind MF at all, but maybe that is just me. I have been looking at the 18mm and 23mm TL lenses. They look fine for me, but  I have M lenses in that range, that can also serve on the FF bodies, and are just as small and to my eyes at least as good. The 35 Summilux looks like it is on par with the SL Summicron lenses, in a relatively small and light package compared to these SL monsters, so that is one reason I bought that one.

Just my 2 cents....

[mokona]

I currently use happily a sigma 56mm on my CL but I'm also conflicted since I own a Full Frame body.... so considering the sigma 65mm f2.

I also own but not use the Sigma 18-56 at all: pictures are too soft for my taste. Might replace it with a 20-60 from Pana when traveling.

Edited December 28, 2023 by mokona

[AdjusterBrett]

With regards to M or SL glass - I'm a virgin  - part of that is the big mirrored glass wall that encircles the Leica world - from outside it - you simply don't bother looking in much - partially because every talking head simply notes Leica as ridiculously expensive and points to a 10k lens - and part of it is you have to actually know a little something to sift through the volumes of lenses they have made over the years.

The SL (601) has broken below the 2K ceiling so its a likely candidate (do NOT tell my wife) - do not know why - already have the S1 - but something simply draws me to it...   I only ever held / shot close to when it came out - wealthy friend in FL - and although he had a lens on it that cost more than my car at the time, it wasn't so much the output but the activity of achieving it - at the time I had a Sony A7R2 - and with a puffed out chest I took hold of the beast thinking - 'what's so special, its got nothing on mine'...   As I shoved the last feather of the crow I ate for lunch, I simply lusted after having the 20K+ setup he had...  I had NO idea how expensive it was - he didn't tell me - I knew the body was pricy at the time - but knew nothing about lenses - he used cool words like Lux, Cron, and Noct...   Had I known - I probably would NOT have held the darned thing.  Setting aside the ridiculous cost of his glass - I enjoyed shooting with it - in a way that was so foreign to the clinical process with the Sony.  This isn't to say this was a fashion vs function moment but more like an art vs. trigonometry...

I've a rule of thumb - if its north of a grand - I need to touch and try before committing...   With Leica glass - that rule isn't reasonable.  So I find I have to rely on a combination of the talking heads (YouTube) and forums to get a feel...   I've always been a big fan of Pentax Forums - feel I get a sense of comparative worth when looking up a vintage lens - but the reality is they have endless reviews of $40 lens..   Aside from here - are there other places to research older (dare I say more 'affordably priced' Leica glass - if such a thing exists)...  Understand, I have some 240 lenses - some marvelous ones - taks, topcons, Zenit, and so on - no Zeiss no Leitz no Leica (dumb luck) - but in all I've very little money in them.  I used to go to auctions - and as long as there was one winner in the lot of 20 lenses - I'd simply bid out of the gate what I was willing to pay for the one lens - too often. being told I was bidding too high out of the gate (when in reality - if I bid 75 dollars when everyone is prepared with their ten dollar bid - they stutter and delay long enough for the gavel to fall in my favor).  This activity made Pentax forums invaluable.  We are NO longer in Kansas.

That is my future M TL R lens plea...  If I knew more - and could focus on a couple decent older ones to chase on auction sites and marketplaces - I've be running down that path.

I am well aware of the rigid fact that TL2 plus non-native or vintage - still good, but TL2 with Leica glass will be better - it just the price to get there (in that, I don't want to drop a bunch of cash on an L mount in APS-C - as I do not see another crop sensor in my future - whereas the SL is likely - and as is too often said - the TL or even the SL is simply a gateway drug to the M world)...  BTW - I have shot my buddies rangefinders - its an acquired taste, and to date, its not in my palette (yet?).

I will note - when I go looking for WIDE Leica lenses - there just doesn't seem much below 21mm - and even in the zoom and the faster 21's - the lenses are fast, the mortgage paperwork to purchase is likely slow (a sure sign I am NEW here)...   So since I'm avoiding 35mm (covered), I look towards something longer - but that too is limited (autofocus).  

It seems I am jumping the gun a bit - for anything autofocus - I should hold my horses until I'm in a shop with the likely SL candidate forthcoming - and then piggyback on the fact I'm plunking down a bunch of money to try out every single Leica lens they have in stock (clerks worst nightmare), when the price reaches four digits I'm pretty gun shy.  An if I accidentally bring my TL2 with me and mount (and shoot) to see sizing - its beginning to look like a plan.  I've not done this before - but I'm not sitting on a video call for the amount of time its going to take to cover hundreds of items - I'll just pack em up and make a pilgrimage, go see a friend or do some work - and circle back to spend what they offer...   With that in mind - anyone have experience with KEH or MPB (been to Roberts / usedphotopro - and LOVE them - but their stock of high end is limited)....

Realistically - the option of the TL35 is a bit big and only APS-C and for near the price of (an even larger/heavier) SL.  

So let me PIVOT this a bit (sorry - still new and still trying to decide where the hell I am going with this)...

In the under 900 dollar (US) range - and NON 21-28mm (have the RX1 for 35 and DO like the Voigt 40/1.4 classic, no need to replace) - can you suggest a Leica lens which has the following qualities (ranked)...   I'm looking to get something that is representative if that beloved Leica look on the TL2 without too much fuss...  Longer is better - I've so many fast fifties (like 35 of them) - so 75-150mm (prime) for primarily candid and portrait.

Rendering #1, Focus-ability #2, all else #3 - it doesn't need to be the sharpest, nor have any other quality that is outstanding - just the colors and the ability for this old guy to get 'good enough' focus on the TL2 with the VisoFlex...  May not be a reasonable order - so if it needs to venture above a grand - so be it...    I tend to find something I like and keep for a while - the RX1 is a perfect example - I've not even looked at the equivalent in years. If it's 35mm - don't care - it's covered.  Much the same with the Fuji over the last few years - certain lengths were simply taken care of.

This first lens does not need to be for life for longer - just a first step.

Sorry for the wondering tangents.

As for the notation of the Panasonic 20-60...   What I have noticed...

The output on the TL2 SOOC is MUCH better than my S1.  By 'better' to my eyes - it's more 'pleasing'.  I am NOT a jpeg shooter - RAW and Lightroom for the win, so I'm not used to tweaking output - but believe I could (and would like to learn how) - as the app on the iPhone seems to work very well.

The output vs the Voigt or the Canon 50/1.4. ssc  - the Panasonic is a bit bland and clinical of sorts - something I'm guessing a Leica lens will not be...

Auto focus with the pana 20-60 is nothing special - but I've no reference vs Leica glass.

That said - bump the ISO way up - shoot it manually with focus pushed a bit (focus on the ears vs the eyes - so the plane of focus starts at the eyes and bleeds backwards) - then bump the contrast in B/W and it tuns into a whole new lens...  Does NOT work on the vintage ones - they are much more picky (and much lower at 1.4-2.2 vs. the 20 at 3.5), and each has its own character...   The Panasonic simply needs a bit of convincing in manual focus to grow a soul...  Nothing special, just more 'pleasing' than shooting it autofocus.  BTW - I figured that out by dumb luck playing with a MISTAKE when I was screwing around with the settings and the native lens.  Blind squirrel/nut...  ISO up, EV down, Focus pushed a bit - then tweak in Lightroom and even a bit of AI denoise (slight) and MORE contrast - and out comes a bit grainy and edgy pic.  Granted the photo was of a Xmas ornament in a tree - but it certainly showed above many other lenses I tried with the same seen.   In full disclosure it was one of four shots - the second one - I KNEW I had pushed the focus past a bit - and for chits and giggles I slapped the edits onto it and then ran the AI - like I said DUMB LUCK, not skill - but that is how I learn - outside the box.

I will say - the files look different (more pleasing) in raw out of the TL2 vs the S1 on most of the lenses I have tried (the Panasonic 50/1.8 aka el-cheapo, still looks better on the S1, can't explain it).

I've notices the L Mount Alliance is BEGGING for someone to throw in some pancakes...   Sony and Fuji have an abundance and I just noticed there doesn't seem to be much in the L mount for autofocus pancakes (literally NONE in FF).

One last note - I really need a fast wide for the S1 - either Panasonic 18/1.8 or the sig 20/1.4 - sig is cheaper, but the Panasonic is much lighter - anyone have any experience with them - looking for if one is any better ON THE LEICA sensor than the other - I know the sigma is better on the S1 - but my plotting mind is now deciding on which lens for the S1 based on how it will behave on the TL2...   This might be yet another disease....  I've got the vintage bug, now the red dot bug, and what shall we call this one - the MORON bug (realistically both lenses work well enough, are close enough in price - so the deciding factor - if any of you have tried on a Leica sensor - LONG SHOT, but worth a try).

 

 

 

[dpitt]

Fine, first things first.  I think this forum is one of the best sources around for guidance about Leica gear. Did you notice the Leica Wiki? It lists almost anything Leica has made since 1925. And each item like each vintage lens has one page with technical info, and a set of links to posts on this forum.

You are right that Leica vintage lenses are not very wide. That has historical reasons. Leica started in a time when 50mm was considered standard, and focus was more on tele (90mm) to get more detail, rather than for wides. 35mm was wide before WWII and rather rare. The first 28mm lenses are mostly from the 50s, still very rare and slow. Leica released the M3 in 1953 with frames for 50/90/135 and no way to use wides other than with an external VF. Bad timing... They realised too late that 35mm was becoming more popular and had to rush for a 35mm solution. First with goggled lenses and then with the release of the M2 a few years later (35/50/90 mm frames). So there are more 50mm Leica vintage lens variations, going back to the 1930s that can still be used on any M-compatible (LTM compatible) body.

90 mm lenses were quite expensive in the 60's but they are one of the cheapest ways to buy into a real Leica 'look' now. I do not mind using 90mm with a 1,5x crop factor. It still makes for a decent portrait option. All of Leica's M and R lenses are made for manual focus, so they have a long focus throw which makes them very suited to focus manually.

If you want to dip into the Leica look without breaking the bank:

• Look out for a Leica Elmar 1:4.0/90 C. Good user samples sell for around the $200-$300 mark and they are much better than their price suggests.
• If it needs to be a 'real' Leica M, then have a look at 1:2.8/90mm Tele-Elmarit M. It is all I could wish for in a portrait 90 mm. And both of these M lenses are nice and compact.
• If you intend to use your lens on the SL, then have a look at the Leica 1:2.0/90 Summicron R. I love it on the SL, but find it a bit too heavy for my TL2. It is cheaper than the M version and IMHO just as good... One of the best kept secrets is that the Leica R lenses were at least as expensive as their M counterparts, and with reason, because they were at least as good. Now they sell for 1/3 to 1/4 the prices for the equivalent M lenses.

Edited December 28, 2023 by dpitt

[tommonego@gmail.com]

I am a CL user, and value the EVF, I have the 11-23 TL, one of the best lenses I have used. I also have the 23mm Summicron, not as good as the 11-23 but it is an f2, it is often the only lens I takeout with the CL. Other than those two the rest of my lenses are M mount, up to a 400 Telyt. I also have adapted 2 Nikon micro lenses, a 105 f2.8 and a 200 f4.

Fast Leica 35s tend to be really expensive, I picked up a 35 Summilux in the late 1970s. I just had a CLA done on it, I was told it had serious problems and it was going to take a while. I didn't want to be without a 35mm so I picked up a 35 f2.8 Zeiss Biogon, one fantastic 35, it is in your price range. I also have a 40 f1.4 CV, my 35s get used more.

For a 50 don't overlook the 50 Summicron V1, collapsible, mine is sharp but not contrasty, a vintage Leica look. Look for one made after 1953 as the earlier ones used thorium glass, later ones are also better constructed. 

I agree with Dirk about the 90mm, some of the best bargains, also include the 90 f2.8 Elmarit, again it has a vintage Leica rendition but can compete with newer lenses.