Shootist Posted November 22, 2007 Author Share #21 Posted November 22, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I installed the new firmware today and tested out the 24D. I noticed that reasonably often the flash did not synch with the shutter, despite the flash ready indicator being steady on in the viewfinder. It appears that the viewfinder flash indicator does not actually indicate that the flash is ready to fire, instead - you have to look for the green ready light on the flash unit itself, and wait a short while after the ready light comes on. Attempting to fire when the ready light is not lit, or has just come on, causes the flash to fire a single burst which is not synched to the shutter. Which seems odd - I'd expect it to simply not fire. I'd have to say, that although the reduced delay from pre-flash is nice - a flash that doesn't fire reliably, and a ready indicator that doesn't actually indicate readiness is really not particularly useful. David what you are see is what I was getting, IE flash firing independent of shutter fire. I still get it but it has only happened once since I took the step detail above in one of my posts. They are Flash off, set mode to TTL/GNC. Mount flash on camera. Turn camera on. Turn flash on. Push and hold shutter button to activate meter. Push shutter button to take shot. This seems to always initiate the pre-flash and real flash when shutter fires. Also I now do not LOCK the flash down to the hot shoe. I do turn the wheel but only enough to engage the pin on the flash into the hole in the hot shoe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 22, 2007 Posted November 22, 2007 Hi Shootist, Take a look here SF24D With M8. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
dpattinson Posted November 22, 2007 Share #22 Posted November 22, 2007 David what you are see is what I was getting, IE flash firing independent of shutter fire.I still get it but it has only happened once since I took the step detail above in one of my posts. They are Flash off, set mode to TTL/GNC. Mount flash on camera. Turn camera on. Turn flash on. Push and hold shutter button to activate meter. Push shutter button to take shot. This seems to always initiate the pre-flash and real flash when shutter fires. Also I now do not LOCK the flash down to the hot shoe. I do turn the wheel but only enough to engage the pin on the flash into the hole in the hot shoe. You really have to wonder what the point of having a nano-second shutter delay is when you have to 'warm up' the shutter by pre-pressing it... seems to be analagous to the meter wake-up issue that happens after meter passivation without flash. Most of the auto features of the camera appear to be pretty worthless to me. I manually set exposure because the meter can't be trusted, I manually set the flash because the flash isn't really dedicated, I manually set the white balance because the auto white balance is flaky, the auto-recock of the shutter is noisy, error handling when writing to SD is non-existant (locks up camera), thank god it wasn't possible to add auto-focus as well Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted November 22, 2007 Author Share #23 Posted November 22, 2007 I understand yours, and others, frustration with the camera but I don't see it that way. This camera has made my photo taking experience glass 3/4+ full, instead of 1/2 empty. Sure I wish the AWB was better, I use that setting all the time out of laziness and or because I'm changing light sources often, sure I wish I could adjust the ISO faster, sure I wish it would wake up faster and so on. But for me the M8 is the best camera I have had in my hands since I bought my first M3. I am forcing myself to take my Nikon D200 with me this weekend, long weekend away, and the only reason for that is because my second M8 is in NJ for a problem with the RF patch. Have I have any real problems, NO (the M8 I sent to NJ still functioned and focused fine). Would I feel different if I had had some problems with the function of the camera, maybe (haven't crossed that bridge yet). Would I buy the M8 again, YES and I did. Will I buy a M9 whenever that time comes, YES if I can swing the cost at that time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpattinson Posted November 22, 2007 Share #24 Posted November 22, 2007 I understand yours, and others, frustration with the camera but I don't see it that way.This camera has made my photo taking experience glass 3/4+ full, instead of 1/2 empty. Sure I wish the AWB was better, I use that setting all the time out of laziness and or because I'm changing light sources often, sure I wish I could adjust the ISO faster, sure I wish it would wake up faster and so on. But for me the M8 is the best camera I have had in my hands since I bought my first M3. I am forcing myself to take my Nikon D200 with me this weekend, long weekend away, and the only reason for that is because my second M8 is in NJ for a problem with the RF patch. Have I have any real problems, NO (the M8 I sent to NJ still functioned and focused fine). Would I feel different if I had had some problems with the function of the camera, maybe (haven't crossed that bridge yet). Would I buy the M8 again, YES and I did. Will I buy a M9 whenever that time comes, YES if I can swing the cost at that time. It's the best digital camera I've used, but there's no way it's as good as my M7 - leaving the digital issue aside. It's probably not as good as the Hexar RF either imho. I'm still happy I bought it, but only because I can manually override all but the shutter recock. FWIW I've put at least 15000 frames though it since April, so it's certainly getting some use Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cme4brain Posted November 22, 2007 Share #25 Posted November 22, 2007 I installed the new firmware today and tested out the 24D. I noticed that reasonably often the flash did not synch with the shutter, despite the flash ready indicator being steady on in the viewfinder. It appears that the viewfinder flash indicator does not actually indicate that the flash is ready to fire, instead - you have to look for the green ready light on the flash unit itself, and wait a short while after the ready light comes on. Attempting to fire when the ready light is not lit, or has just come on, causes the flash to fire a single burst which is not synched to the shutter. Which seems odd - I'd expect it to simply not fire. I'd have to say, that although the reduced delay from pre-flash is nice - a flash that doesn't fire reliably, and a ready indicator that doesn't actually indicate readiness is really not particularly useful. I don't know what to tell you, you have a faulty flash. My 24d has worked perfectly, never not synching with the shutter, never not working. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpattinson Posted November 22, 2007 Share #26 Posted November 22, 2007 I don't know what to tell you, you have a faulty flash. My 24d has worked perfectly, never not synching with the shutter, never not working. I'm curious, have you tried reproducing my error? My flash works fine if I wait until the green ready light has been on for a short while too. However if I use the viewfinder ready light (red zigzag not flashing) and fire before the green one has appeared, or has just appeared - then I get the single unsynched flash. I'd be interested to see if that produces the same effect on your camera/flash. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
egibaud Posted November 23, 2007 Share #27 Posted November 23, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) well mine worked fine... but I never needed it.. and last week I tried to use it. It fired fine 5 or 6 times and then nothing. I thought it was the battery but when pressing the test botton it worked... I tried with another M8 body... and it worked and then stopped too !!!!!!!!!! I also tried to fire a cactus remote control, and fine, and then.... stopped too.... WHAT'S WRONG???? are my flash circuit fried on both bodies?????? Eric Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grduprey Posted November 23, 2007 Share #28 Posted November 23, 2007 I'm curious, have you tried reproducing my error? My flash works fine if I wait until the green ready light has been on for a short while too. However if I use the viewfinder ready light (red zigzag not flashing) and fire before the green one has appeared, or has just appeared - then I get the single unsynched flash. I'd be interested to see if that produces the same effect on your camera/flash. Mine works perfectly, and I use the red lightning indicator all the time. It also workd just as advertised, auto functions and all. If you don't wait until the green light on the flash or the lightning bolt in the camera come on, yes it will malfunction. This happens with any auto/ttl flash and any camera. I have had far more problems getting a proper flash exposure with my D200 and SB600 flash, than with my M8 and SF24D. Gene Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy Flood Posted November 23, 2007 Share #29 Posted November 23, 2007 I put the SF24D in TTL. I set the aperture to the desired aperture for creative effect. I set the shutter anywhere between 1/30 and 1/250 depending on subject and amount of fill wanted. This is working really well for me since the firmware update. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpattinson Posted November 23, 2007 Share #30 Posted November 23, 2007 Mine works perfectly, and I use the red lightning indicator all the time. It also workd just as advertised, auto functions and all. If you don't wait until the green light on the flash or the lightning bolt in the camera come on, yes it will malfunction. This happens with any auto/ttl flash and any camera. I have had far more problems getting a proper flash exposure with my D200 and SB600 flash, than with my M8 and SF24D. Gene Well, with the M8 one never knows if it's a camera specific problem, a general but sporadic/hard-to-reproduce problem, or an 'undocumented feature' On my camera: 1. the ready indicator in the camera is defective - it shows ready (unblinking bolt), but the green indicator on the flash has not come on, and if I shoot at this point, i get a single un-synched flash. (could possibly be that the camera doesn't handle it when the flash batteries are not absolutely fresh - wouldn't surprise me - given the rest of the QA process). 2. the shutter speed is not automatically down-set to 1/250 (which I thought a previous poster said should happen automatically). I have to manually set it to 1/250 or below. 3. in 'TTL' mode on the M8 - the flash output is not affected by dialling in +/- EV. I tested this by actually dialing in -3 EV and taking the same shot (identical exposure to -0 EV). To get 'automatic' reduction in flash power - I have to use the 'A' mode on the flash and dial in -2 EV. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmanzz Posted November 23, 2007 Share #31 Posted November 23, 2007 ok, i'm fairly new and certainly not an expert but i'll try and answer these questions: 1. The ready light on the flash is the indicator of the power level of the flash, Nikon flashes work the same way. Disregard power level indicators on the camera body unless its an integrated flash with the camera body 2. The shutter speed is not set to 1/250. The flash synch speed can be set to 1/250th if the appropriate menu item is selected in the m8 setup menu. 3. EV adjustments on the m8 only work in A modes, both the flash and the body work this way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted November 23, 2007 Share #32 Posted November 23, 2007 ok, i'm fairly new and certainly not an expert but i'll try and answer these questions: 1. The ready light on the flash is the indicator of the power level of the flash, Nikon flashes work the same way. Disregard power level indicators on the camera body unless its an integrated flash with the camera body 2. The shutter speed is not set to 1/250. The flash synch speed can be set to 1/250th if the appropriate menu item is selected in the m8 setup menu. 3. EV adjustments on the m8 only work in A modes, both the flash and the body work this way. The EV adjustment works in manual mode on the body as well. Not sure about the flash as I only have a SF-20. My M8 has been in Solms forever for a rangefinder fix (sticky framelines) so I've been using my M7. I have to agree that the build quality of the 7 is much better than the 8. Why it should be that way is a good question. The 7 just feels more solid and tight.But I do miss the 8, considering the price of film, and to me the M is the best 35mm experience (though not for everything). And I've had good luck with the little Leica flash - I'm thinking of maybe picking up an SF-24 now that they've narrowed the pre-flash. Even on auto I think it gives more flexibiltity than the 20. But like any flash, one needs to diffuse it. It won't light up an arena, but it's a great for intimate settings when one doesn't want to lug around a brick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted November 23, 2007 Share #33 Posted November 23, 2007 that is strange that the flash compensation does not function in TTL...that is precisely where you need it since you cannot compensate the flash any other way, moving the aperture will change the output and ISO is set automatically! can someone confirm this? Compensation in A mode is redundant since you can always fool the flash by not setting the aperture it thinks. oy! can they not get something that simple right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Yoder Posted November 24, 2007 Share #34 Posted November 24, 2007 Well, I did another compensation test in TTL mode: subject a room at avg 10-12' distance, iris at f2.8, shutter at 125th (to eliminate ambient light). The images in playback on the lcd seemed to be progressively darker as I went from -1 to -3. Hmmmm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cme4brain Posted November 24, 2007 Share #35 Posted November 24, 2007 that is strange that the flash compensation does not function in TTL...that is precisely where you need it since you cannot compensate the flash any other way, moving the aperture will change the output and ISO is set automatically! can someone confirm this? Compensation in A mode is redundant since you can always fool the flash by not setting the aperture it thinks. oy! can they not get something that simple right? Hold the phone! What is this? Are you stating that adjusting the flash EV compensation on the flash itself in TTL/GNC mode does NOT alter the flash output? That the flash-dialied in EV compensation merely adjusts the camera ISO levels to the same degree? I would think NOT, as that would require the flash communicating to the camera to that degree and the camera altering its program. Page 111 of the M8 manual specifically states that you can set the flash EV value independant of the camera metering. Whew! How do these rumors start? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted November 24, 2007 Share #36 Posted November 24, 2007 I was replying to mmanzz and dpattinson. I wasn't stating it, I was asking someone else to corroborate this claim since it seemed to be nonsensical. Stan Yoder in the next post said his flash worked as it should or is expected to, so I guess the two OP's had it wrong. This kind of thing happens when you have a lot of posters with different experience levels with the camera and with flash in general. Outside of digital itself, nothing has the power to mystify like flash does. Trust me, I have been TA'ing at ICP on an intro to studio lighting course, and many people with even with some experience cannot figure out flash lighting, whether it be on camera or studio. I wanted confirmation since I was intending to buy this unit and if EV +/- did not work on the flash it would be pointless. The SF20D EV comp only works on the film bodies, so I was wondering if the SF24D had the same issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
voightL Posted November 24, 2007 Share #37 Posted November 24, 2007 Well, with the M8 one never knows if it's a camera specific problem, a general but sporadic/hard-to-reproduce problem, or an 'undocumented feature' On my camera 3. in 'TTL' mode on the M8 - the flash output is not affected by dialling in +/- EV. I tested this by actually dialing in -3 EV and taking the same shot (identical exposure to -0 EV). To get 'automatic' reduction in flash power - I have to use the 'A' mode on the flash and dial in -2 EV. I just got a SF24D yesterday. I was able to affect flash output by dialling +/- EV in TTL/GNC mode with M8. M8 is in Aperture Priority mode-"A" on shutter speed dial. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted November 24, 2007 Author Share #38 Posted November 24, 2007 What I'm not liking about the 24D is that you can only set the aperture used and with that the shooting distance changes. I would be nice to be able to set both shooting distance and the aperture you wanted to use. So If my subject was 5 feet, 1.5M, away I could set the distance to that and then set the aperture to say f/2. As it is now if I set the aperture to f/2 the distance is close to 40-58 feet depending. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted November 24, 2007 Share #39 Posted November 24, 2007 What I'm not liking about the 24D is that you can only set the aperture used and with that the shooting distance changes. I would be nice to be able to set both shooting distance and the aperture you wanted to use. So If my subject was 5 feet, 1.5M, away I could set the distance to that and then set the aperture to say f/2. As it is now if I set the aperture to f/2 the distance is close to 40-58 feet depending. This is true of all flashes. Do you find your pictures grossly overexposed at 5ft and f2? The flash only has a finite range of adjustment, the SF20 only had a 3 stop range, I believe the sf24 has a 6 stop range. Having said that, this does not mean you cannot shoot at f2 and 5 ft on TTL-if the strobe is too powerful, and I would be surprised by that, if anything the leica flashes are too weak, you can diffuse the head with some frost to cut the output down a stop or two. I once heard of the "bandaid" trick which was to put a bandaid on the head to cut the light and make it warmer...might look funny tho:D at least on the sf20 I have found those working ranges to be pretty nonsensical, I rarely get overexposed pics, only underexposed. I would say it is generous by about a stop over what it is actually delivering. You can calculate what is the lowest possible output, the guide number for the flash is stated rather confusingly, I have seen various numbers, but if it is similar to the sf20 then the old style guide number is 160, which means at 10 feet you get f16. With 5 stops of variability you get down to 2.8 at 10 feet as minimum power. 6 stops would get you to f2, which is what I suspect the sf24 can do. so to get f2 at 5 feet, 5 feet is two stops "brighter than" 10 feet, almost exactly, which means dropping the output of the flash 2 more stops over it's 6 stop variability. solution is diffusion, ND or similar. I always have an 1/8th CTO/Straw filter in there also, for warmth. So how did I get to the distance calculation? for those who don't know, and quick shorthand is that you can read distances like f-stops, the exposure is doubled or halved if you regard feet or meters like they are f-stops, the progression in thirds is this: 4, 4.5, 5.0, 5.6, 6.7, 7.1, 8, 9.5, 10, 11. There are 6 third-stop increments between 5.0 and 10, which is two stops. Don't ask me why Leica says the gn is 65 at 20m..I have no clue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nryn Posted November 24, 2007 Share #40 Posted November 24, 2007 Out of curiosity, does anyone have a .pdf version of the SF-24D manual? I'm traveling and would like to have one on my computer. Can't find one on Leica's sites. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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