Film degradation during processing.

[Anthony MD]

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When film is processed does any degradation happen?  Some call it generation loss!

 

[Chuck Albertson]

No. Who call it "generation loss"? Name three.

[FrozenInTime]

23 minutes ago, Anthony MD said:

When film is processed does any degradation happen?  Some call it generation loss!

 

Sounds like you are drawing a comparison to creating 'prints' of the film as would be done for a cinema movie. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Release_print ;

So, an optical paper print from a 135 stills camera negative is the same.

A directly projected E-6 / Kodachrome slide cut from the camera roll would be a first generation viewing of the positive without loss. 

A scan copy of either positive or negative film could loose some definition dependant upon the care and quality.

A paper print from a scan within a mini-lab C-41 colour negative film processor will not in practice preserve all the detail in the master negative.

[250swb]

14 hours ago, Anthony MD said:

When film is processed does any degradation happen?  Some call it generation loss!

 

Your very same question led to a six page thread on Photrio where you didn’t get the answer you wanted. The definition of futility is to keep asking the same question over and over expecting a different answer.

[Anthony MD]

The answer I got there was yes and no…!

[Anthony MD]

2 hours ago, Chuck Albertson said:

No. Who call it "generation loss"? Name three.

 

2 hours ago, Chuck Albertson said:

No. Who call it "generation loss"? Name three.

Someone on another group, Photrio…!

Edited November 5, 2023 by Anthony MD

[Anthony MD]

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1 hour ago, FrozenInTime said:

Sounds like you are drawing a comparison to creating 'prints' of the film as would be done for a cinema movie. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Release_print ;

So, an optical paper print from a 135 stills camera negative is the same.

A directly projected E-6 / Kodachrome slide cut from the camera roll would be a first generation viewing of the positive without loss. 

A scan copy of either positive or negative film could loose some definition dependant upon the care and quality.

A paper print from a scan within a mini-lab C-41 colour negative film processor will not in practice preserve all the detail in the master negative.

On the other side of the coin, when inserting a SD card directly to a computer is there degradation also…?

[Anbaric]

1 hour ago, Anthony MD said:

The answer I got there was yes and no…!

‘And it is also said,’ answered Frodo: ‘Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.’

[williamj]

4 hours ago, Anthony MD said:

When film is processed does any degradation happen?  Some call it generation loss!

 

When film is processed silver is lost in black and white or colour dyes become visible in colour and some residues are washed out. This is not called degradation, but if you like you can call it that. I don’t.
Subsequently, the image may degrade if not fixed properly, in black and white, or if it is colour, the dyes may change due to exposure to light, temperature or oxygen. This is called degradation but does not occur during processing. 

Generations had nothing to do with film processing. 

[williamj]

1 hour ago, Anthony MD said:

On the other side of the coin, when inserting a SD card directly to a computer is there degradation also…?

An SD card or similar copies a digital signal. This means an exact copy will usually be made, a copy without error. Occasionally a glitch may occur and a 0 may be copied instead of a 1 but error checking routines are there to correct such glitches. Digital images are copied without degradation unless you copy from a lossless format to a lossy format, such as from TIFF to JPEG. Opening a JPEG with an editor and saving as a smaller JPEG causes further degradation. 

[Anthony MD]

18 minutes ago, williamj said:

An SD card or similar copies a digital signal. This means an exact copy will usually be made, a copy without error. Occasionally a glitch may occur and a 0 may be copied instead of a 1 but error checking routines are there to correct such glitches. Digital images are copied without degradation unless you copy from a lossless format to a lossy format, such as from TIFF to JPEG. Opening a JPEG with an editor and saving as a smaller JPEG causes further degradation. 

Interesting, for digital, I use the MD 262.  It only shoots RAW. So the SD card to my computer will result in no error…?

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited November 5, 2023 by Anthony MD

[williamj]

22 minutes ago, Anthony MD said:

Interesting, for digital, I use the MD 262.  It only shoots RAW. So the SD card to my computer will result in no error…?

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Yes, within the limits of the specifications of your devices, because it is lossless and only the copying of 0s and 1s. You can test this by downloading the image twice under different names and then compare them at the pixel level, if that sort of thing appeals to you 🙂. 

[Anthony MD]

8 minutes ago, williamj said:

Yes, within the limits of the specifications of your devices, because it is lossless and only the copying of 0s and 1s. You can test this by downloading the image twice under different names and then compare them at the pixel level, if that sort of thing appeals to you 🙂. 

Thanks for answering my questions in such an easy and informative way…!

[williamj]

6 minutes ago, Anthony MD said:

Thanks for answering my questions in such an easy and informative way…!

You’re welcome

[250swb]

12 hours ago, williamj said:

An SD card or similar copies a digital signal. This means an exact copy will usually be made, a copy without error. Occasionally a glitch may occur and a 0 may be copied instead of a 1 but error checking routines are there to correct such glitches. Digital images are copied without degradation unless you copy from a lossless format to a lossy format, such as from TIFF to JPEG. Opening a JPEG with an editor and saving as a smaller JPEG causes further degradation. 

It may copy across from a card to PC without loss but can you see it without loss (degradation)? As in is the monitor you are viewing the image on both capable of rendering each nuance of colour and tone contained in the information on the card? And if a RAW image there are the variables (degradation) of using different processing programmes, ACR, etc. in which each can render a slightly different image. And if all were possible without loss in a scientific type of experiment then factor in whether an individuals eyesight can match for accuracy the information on the card when it is presented on a perfect monitor with perfect processing.

So lossless is a nice idea, but in practice it isn't practical without accepting some loss along the way. The same as with processing a film, there is no utterly perfect way to do it for an average photographer to do it (but maybe NASA have a clue?). And nothing is achieved by it even if it was possible, given the photographer chooses film knowing that loss will be involved, and often intentional loss if the photographer sets out to make a grainy image for example. So lossless or 'with no degradation' isn't a concept anybody can use, least of all to make personal photographs, it exists purely as a theoretical starting point for film, and an actual starting point for digital that becomes moot as soon as anybody wants to look at an image.

Edited November 5, 2023 by 250swb

[Anthony MD]

Yes,  fully agree.

My 2K monitor works well with my MD 262 by lessening the clinical sharpness of the digital files.

On the other hand 🖐️, I wonder if it’s not doing justice to the premium film scans…!

 

[250swb]

5 hours ago, Anthony MD said:

 

On the other hand 🖐️, I wonder if it’s not doing justice to the premium film scans…!

 

Premium film scans nowadays have had the mantel transferred from a dedicated high end scanner to a 24mp (or more) digital camera with the appropriate lens and technique. You can even get cameras that can pixel shift (Nikon ZF) and from 24mp create 96mp files of perfect accuracy. But ultimately there will still be degradation because you can't have perfection with no degradation if you also want to have your own opinion, nothing remains perfect as soon as a human mind accesses it, let alone Photoshop.

[Anthony MD]

Nothing is perfect, too many variables with differences in opinions and perceptions, you’re right…!

Edited November 6, 2023 by Anthony MD

[Anthony MD]

Some like the look of film while others like the digital images, I like them both…!

Edited November 6, 2023 by Anthony MD

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