SL2-S Noise

[Chaemono]

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In a high contrast scene, protecting the highlights results in underexposure of the shadows and pulling up exposure in the dark areas in high ISO files in post is, pardon my French, where the sh!t hits the fan. The question here is, therefore, by how much does the fan get hit with the SL2 vs. SL2-S.

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[LocalHero1953]

7 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

In a high contrast scene, protecting the highlights results in underexposure of the shadows and pulling up exposure in the dark areas in high ISO files in post is, pardon my French, where the sh!t hits the fan. The question here is, therefore, by how much does the fan get hit with the SL2 vs. SL2-S.

FWIW, I always use highlight-weighted metering. I've never fully investigated it, but on average I find that as a result I have to lift Exposure in Lightroom by 0.5-1 stop (while keeping an eye on the white point). 

[OleBe]

Possibly some valuable information in regard to SL2-S noise.

If you shoot at ISO 100 you can raise the exposure in post by about 3 stops until noise starts to show significantely.

That knowledge for me is very helpful for protecting highlights and still get a decent exposure later on.

Unfortunately it seems this cannot be done in the camera directly by increasing ISO. 

 

[Chaemono]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb OleBe:

Possibly some valuable information in regard to SL2-S noise.

If you shoot at ISO 100 you can raise the exposure in post by about 3 stops until noise starts to show significantely.

 

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How significantely does it get?

[OleBe]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Chaemono:

How significantely does it get?

At first nearly not visible (even after +3 stops) so guess +4 or even +5 stops are usually possible if you add some noise reduction

[hdmesa]

On 10/8/2023 at 10:51 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

If there is more available light, it is only going to reach the sensor if the aperture is wide enough and the shutter speed slow enough. If they are too narrow or too fast, then the sensor 'sees' low light; the same as if there was little available light and the aperture was wide and the shutter speed slow.

If you are judging the available light in my images on the basis of how well exposed they look, that's only because the ISO has been cranked up. And cranking the ISO up is what generates the noise.

It's low photon count that becomes critical in extremely low light. You may be using the same high ISOs, but in more well-lit scenes the results will be better than in dimly lit scenes. Candlelight with most of the frame in darkness is going to show you how read noise in the shadows is being handled. SL2 simply can't handle these situations very well at > ISO 6400 compared to the SL2-S (without AI intervention).

[chrismuc]

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51 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

It's low photon count that becomes critical in extremely low light. You may be using the same high ISOs, but in more well-lit scenes the results will be better than in dimly lit scenes. Candlelight with most of the frame in darkness is going to show you how read noise in the shadows is being handled. SL2 simply can't handle these situations very well at > ISO 6400 compared to the SL2-S (without AI intervention).

IMO camera noise and a stop more or less DR became pretty irrelevant since Adobe introduced AI denoise in ACR. That does miracles: making virtually any digital raw image noise free, with zero visible artifacts or negative effect on perceived sharpness, the contrary, the details even look more defined, the whole image looks very natural. It also removes color effects caused by the Bayer filter and Moiré (I guess) in hair at portraits. I use it for every single important file, even at base ISO, for any digital camera I have (especially also older cameras like Leica M9, Mamiya ZD, Kodak DCS SLR/c with noisy CCD or CMOS sensors)  Only drawback: it converts any raw format to dng without compression, these files are huge. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by chrismuc

[hdmesa]

4 hours ago, chrismuc said:

IMO camera noise and a stop more or less DR became pretty irrelevant since Adobe introduced AI denoise in ACR. That does miracles: making virtually any digital raw image noise free, with zero visible artifacts or negative effect on perceived sharpness, the contrary, the details even look more defined, the whole image looks very natural. It also removes color effects caused by the Bayer filter and Moiré (I guess) in hair at portraits. I use it for every single important file, even at base ISO, for any digital camera I have (especially also older cameras like Leica M9, Mamiya ZD, Kodak DCS SLR/c with noisy CCD or CMOS sensors)  Only drawback: it converts any raw format to dng without compression, these files are huge. 

I'll try it out. I have LR but have been using C1 for several years now. In the past, AI-based noise reduction has given me creepy vibes.

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I'll try it out. I have LR but have been using C1 for several years now. In the past, AI-based noise reduction has given me creepy vibes.

Yes - AI noise reduction can give a plasticky perfection to faces. I use it a lot for theatre photography: it disturbs me more than the people I am doing it for - they just appreciate having a good representation of their performance.

[Anakronox]

With regards to AI noise reduction/sharpening, what I’ve found helpful is to do the following:

• Adjust image colors, levels, etc. in LR or C1, without straightening or any perspective correction.  Lens corrections are okay to use.
• Open the adjusted image in Photoshop and duplicate the background layer.
• Run Topaz Sharpen or Denoise AI on the newly duplicated layer.
• Mask in only the areas that needed the sharpening or denoising.  Use a light hand here.
• Adjust opacity to blend in the masked layer if needed. 

This does mean more work for me, but in cases where I’ve slightly missed focus and need to recover a shot or have some noticeable shadow noise, this makes for a far more natural looking final image.  No plastic people!

[Kim Dahl]

1 hour ago, Anakronox said:

With regards to AI noise reduction/sharpening, what I’ve found helpful is to do the following:

• Adjust image colors, levels, etc. in LR or C1, without straightening or any perspective correction.  Lens corrections are okay to use.
• Open the adjusted image in Photoshop and duplicate the background layer.
• Run Topaz Sharpen or Denoise AI on the newly duplicated layer.
• Mask in only the areas that needed the sharpening or denoising.  Use a light hand here.
• Adjust opacity to blend in the masked layer if needed. 

This does mean more work for me, but in cases where I’ve slightly missed focus and need to recover a shot or have some noticeable shadow noise, this makes for a far more natural looking final image.  No plastic people!

Thanks for the advice. I don't have topaz's but only Photoshop. Do you mean Denoise AI in Photoshop?
I will try that.

I borrowed an SL2 (usually use M and Canon) and photographed a small wedding (only the church and a bit outside) and to my great surprise, I would say that pictures even on the 6400 Asa cannot be used (according to my standards) without heavy post-processing. But as written, faces get a very plastic-like appearance. It surprised me a lot that Leica's most modern SL2 cannot be used on the 6400 Asa.

[Anakronox]

You’re welcome!  Unfortunately my process depends on Topaz.  I suppose though that you could use the Adobe AI denoise, then export that and add it as a layer in PS.  Then mask as needed. 

[hdmesa]

5 hours ago, Kim Dahl said:

Thanks for the advice. I don't have topaz's but only Photoshop. Do you mean Denoise AI in Photoshop?
I will try that.

I borrowed an SL2 (usually use M and Canon) and photographed a small wedding (only the church and a bit outside) and to my great surprise, I would say that pictures even on the 6400 Asa cannot be used (according to my standards) without heavy post-processing. But as written, faces get a very plastic-like appearance. It surprised me a lot that Leica's most modern SL2 cannot be used on the 6400 Asa.

The SL2 was released in 2019, so it's getting pretty old, so the noise performance at 6400 and above shouldn't be too surprising. Leica's most modern sensor is in the M11, but I still feel the SL2-S gives slightly more pleasing results with regard to noise character and color in general.

[hdmesa]

7 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Yes - AI noise reduction can give a plasticky perfection to faces. I use it a lot for theatre photography: it disturbs me more than the people I am doing it for - they just appreciate having a good representation of their performance.

6 hours ago, Anakronox said:

With regards to AI noise reduction/sharpening, what I’ve found helpful is to do the following:

• Adjust image colors, levels, etc. in LR or C1, without straightening or any perspective correction.  Lens corrections are okay to use.
• Open the adjusted image in Photoshop and duplicate the background layer.
• Run Topaz Sharpen or Denoise AI on the newly duplicated layer.
• Mask in only the areas that needed the sharpening or denoising.  Use a light hand here.
• Adjust opacity to blend in the masked layer if needed. 

This does mean more work for me, but in cases where I’ve slightly missed focus and need to recover a shot or have some noticeable shadow noise, this makes for a far more natural looking final image.  No plastic people!

Hasn't Lightroom's new AI noise reduction surpassed these third party plugins for natural results? That's what I was hoping, but maybe it's the same thing.

[hansvons]

AI cannot fix a sensor’s texture appearance and colour separation in the shadows. That must be provided by the sensor. The larger the pixel pitch the more “juice” will be available in low light conditions. 

Thats where the SL2-S shines. 

[Anakronox]

21 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Hasn't Lightroom's new AI noise reduction surpassed these third party plugins for natural results? That's what I was hoping, but maybe it's the same thing.

To be honest, I don’t know.  I migrated to C1 a year ago and haven’t tested any new LR features.  

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

Hasn't Lightroom's new AI noise reduction surpassed these third party plugins for natural results? That's what I was hoping, but maybe it's the same thing.

I haven't compared Lightroom denoise against Topaz, but LR still can't create detail which isn't there - it will manufacture a face from what it thinks it should look like. It is very convincing, but a bit too perfect/plastic. 90% of the time it is good enough.

Edited October 14, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[hdmesa]

7 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I haven't compared Lightroom denoise against Topaz, but LR still can't create detail which isn't there - it will manufacture a face from what it thinks it should look like. It is very convincing, but a bit too perfect/plastic. 90% of the time it is good enough.

Makes sense. Currently using the M11M and have an Zf incoming today, so noise won't be a big problem for me for now, thankfully. The SL2 and Q2 can really use the noise reduction, though, as the character of the color noise is unpleasing to me even when converted to b&w – reminds me of film with clumpy grain.

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[Kim Dahl]

I would hope leica releases a SL3 with 60MP and an SL3s with even less noise 24MP or 36MP. So they can compete with Canon and Nikon on that front. The SL2 is not capable of photographing a church wedding in good quality. I had big problems. I would probably have been better with the SL2s.

[Bikie John]

I am not sure how helpful this is, and I have never used an SL2 for comparison. But ....

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SL2-S + Sigma 105mm f/2.8 at f/2.8, ISO 12,500. Heavily bent in Lightroom because the lighting (as usual) was awful. About +1 stop overall exposure, massive shifts in WB as there was a horrible magenta cast (what is it about lighting techs that they love magenta so much?), almost maximum expansion of shadows + highlights. Lots more adjustments applied separately to subject and background in an attempt to balance them up. There was a bit of speckly noise in the out of focus background so I applied a little bit of LR noise reduction (standard, not the new AI version) to the background areas.

Overall I'm pretty pleased. A print at A4 looks pretty good, too.

Hope this is of some use ... John