SL2-S Noise

[Stuart Richardson]

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1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

What I can I say is, that I kept the M10M after I got the M11M because I don‘t feel as comfortable with the pushed shadows noise of the M11M at ISO 12500/25000 as I do with the M10M and the latter doesn’t even have a BSI sensor. No M11M comparable picture here https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-hv4mvG/ I still need to test this hypothesis more carefully.

I disagree with Sean Reid‘s findings on the high ISO noise advantage of the M11M over the M10M BTW. 

You are not alone...I am a subscriber and I felt that the M10M images looked better to me too, even when the M11M was downscaled.

[Chaemono]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Sohail:

Black and white photography is a different ballgame though.

True. There is an α7R IV ISO 3200 shot with exposure +2.5 and shadows +100 in here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-tzdLng/ It's the Dormition of Mary. 

[Sohail]

Thank you for sharing this. Interesting results though I'm particularly curious to see actual examples of the SL2-S in challenging lowlight conditions. It's worth also pointing out that results will vary depending on the subject (e.g. in the case of human skin tones which are hard to denoise). Also, if you have busy compositions and lots of geometrical forms, they can at times camouflage a noisy picture. Not to mention of course the big difference between images shot handheld and on a tripod. Longer shutter speeds will of course yield better results. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Sohail

[LocalHero1953]

I'm not here to convince you of one camera's performance over another, and I don't spend time testing - I prefer to 'use' and develop a conviction about performance over time. I had the SL2 for a while but traded it in for the SL2-S for the better colours and low light performance. I have never tried the Q3 or M11 variants.

Here is the SL2-S and Summilux-M 75 zoom at ISO 6400, f/2, 1/320, denoised in Lightroom.

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SL2-S ISO 6400 24-90SL 1/125s f/3.5, denoised in Lightroom

Edited October 8, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[Sohail]

36 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I'm not here to convince you of one camera's performance over another, and I don't spend time testing - I prefer to 'use' and develop a conviction about performance over time. I had the SL2 for a while but traded it in for the SL2-S for the better colours and low light performance. I have never tried the Q3 or M11 variants.

Here is the SL2-S and Summilux-M 75 zoom at ISO 6400, f/2, 1/320, denoised in Lightroom.

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SL2-S ISO 6400 24-90SL 1/125s f/3.5, denoised in Lightroom

Lovely images! 

I noticed you had a very decent shutter speed for the first image, and relatively speaking for the second too. TBH, I think the SL2 could have managed both situations. Here's an image I shot with the SL2 in low but better lighting. No noise reduction was applied.

 

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, Sohail said:

Lovely images! 

I noticed you had a very decent shutter speed for the first image, and relatively speaking for the second too. TBH, I think the SL2 could have managed both situations. Here's an image I shot with the SL2 in low but better lighting. No noise reduction was applied.

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What ISO was that picture? 
My two*were just the only recent low light images that I had already uploaded to the forum.  I’ll check others in Lightroom later. In these cases I normally shoot in A mode with AutoISO and the default auto shutter settings (unless it’s dance, when I switch to S mode). 

 

*The first of mine was the Summilux-M 75 prime, not 'zoom' as I wrote. By the time I spotted the error it was too late to edit!

Edited October 8, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[Chaemono]

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vor einer Stunde schrieb Sohail:

Lovely images! 

I noticed you had a very decent shutter speed for the first image, and relatively speaking for the second too. TBH, I think the SL2 could have managed both situations. Here's an image I shot with the SL2 in low but better lighting. No noise reduction was applied.
 

 

Some high ISO, high contrast SL2-S examples in the attached thread. DNGs can be downloaded.  

 

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, Sohail said:

I noticed you had a very decent shutter speed for the first image, and relatively speaking for the second too. TBH, I think the SL2 could have managed both situations.

I suggest the question you should ask yourself is: could the SL2 have managed both situations with the same settings, including the same shutter speed and ISO?

(FTAOD I don't know)

Edited October 8, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[LocalHero1953]

I am going to post a series of images from my catalogue with ISO 25,000 and shutter speed 1/25s or less. For each one I will show them first with no noise reduction (luminance or colour) and no sharpening, and then with LR's AI noise reduction. I had to go back a several months because my practice now is to apply Lightroom's denoise, which creates a new DNG; I then delete the original DNG. All these shots date from before Lightroom's AI Denoise. 

At forum size and quality the amount of noise you see in the original images will be limited, but it is very evident, even when viewed on the forum, on my 27" monitor.

ISO 25,000 1/8s, f/4 24-90SL zoom

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Edited October 8, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[LocalHero1953]

ISO 25,000 1/25s, f/4 24-90SL zoom

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[LocalHero1953]

ISO 25,000 1/25s, f/4 24-90SL zoom

NB The performance lighting failed, so the scene is lit by candle and smartphone!

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Edited October 8, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[LocalHero1953]

ISO 25,000 1/20s, f/9 90-280SL zoom (at 147mm)

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[LocalHero1953]

ISO 25,000 1/25s, f/6.8 Summilux-M 75mm

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[Sohail]

54 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

ISO 25,000 1/25s, f/6.8 Summilux-M 75mm

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Fantastic images! Thanks for taking the trouble to share them. They certainly do showcase the potential of the sensor

I know you've pushed the ISO right up here, shot it at 1/25s and at f6.8 but (I'm sorry to be a bore) the lighting doesn't strike me as particularly challenging. The guy here is nicely lit up. I suspect it's a professional theatre lighting set up. Was the scene much darker? Do you have anything in candlelight? Like my original post.
 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Sohail

[Sohail]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

What ISO was that picture? 
My two*were just the only recent low light images that I had already uploaded to the forum.  I’ll check others in Lightroom later. In these cases I normally shoot in A mode with AutoISO and the default auto shutter settings (unless it’s dance, when I switch to S mode). 

 

*The first of mine was the Summilux-M 75 prime, not 'zoom' as I wrote. By the time I spotted the error it was too late to edit!

This was shot at 500 ISO, which roughly speaking I think would have been enough for your first image.

[Chaemono]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb Sohail:

Fantastic images! Thanks for taking the trouble to share them. They certainly do showcase the potential of the sensor

I know you've pushed the ISO right up here, shot it at 1/25s and at f6.8 but (I'm sorry to be a bore) the lighting doesn't strike me as particularly challenging. The guy here is nicely lit up. I suspect it's a professional theatre lighting set up. Was the scene much darker? Do you have anything in candlelight? Like my original post.
 

Yes, any modern sensor will do just fine at high ISO in a well lighted scene. The question is, what do high ISO files look like when you manhandle them truculently. 

[LocalHero1953]

3 minutes ago, Sohail said:

Fantastic images! Thanks for taking the trouble to share them. They certainly do showcase the potential of the server.

I know you've pushed the ISO right up here, shot it at 1/25s and at f6.8 but (I'm sorry to be a bore) the lighting doesn't strike me as particularly challenging. The guy here is nicely lit up. I suspect it's a professional theatre lighting set up. Was the scene much darker? Do you have anything in candlelight? Like my original post.
 

I've posted examples showing noise in low light and at high ISO, as you asked for (including post #31, partly in candlelight). The evidence for the low light is that they had to be shot at ISO 25,000, sometimes driven by reduced apertures selected to obtain the DoF I wanted. None of these images are the original raw file without lighting adjustments in post: all have had adjustment in Lightroom to brightness, highlights, shadows, white and black points, colour balance. 

But in the end, aperture and shutter speed are irrelevant for judging noise: it's how the sensor responds to limited light passing through the lens that counts.

1 minute ago, Sohail said:

This was shot at 500 ISO, which roughly speaking I think would have been enough for your first image.

Hmm - ISO 500 sounds like excellent light to me.

 

Anyway, I have posted examples - it's up to you how you read them. I reached my conclusion about the SL2-S three years ago!

[LocalHero1953]

Just one more example - the nearest I have to your candlelight orchestra.

SL2-S ISO 25,000, 1/20s, f/4. 24-90SL zoom at 90mm

#1: original dng as imported
#2: the image adjusted for light, colour etc, but no noise reduction or sharpening
#3: the image after Lightroom's AI Denoise

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[Sohail]

11 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Hmm - ISO 500 sounds like excellent light to me.

It wasn't excellent but not as challenging as in my original post. I'm also using a faster lens. That aside, you've convinced me to revisit the capabilities of the SL2-S sensor.

13 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

But in the end, aperture and shutter speed are irrelevant for judging noise: it's how the sensor responds to limited light passing through the lens that counts.

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. If a scene has more available light that's more light getting in, more information, and less work for the sensor.

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[LocalHero1953]

25 minutes ago, Sohail said:

It wasn't excellent but not as challenging as in my original post. I'm also using a faster lens. That aside, you've convinced me to revisit the capabilities of the SL2-S sensor.

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. If a scene has more available light that's more light getting in, more information, and less work for the sensor.

If there is more available light, it is only going to reach the sensor if the aperture is wide enough and the shutter speed slow enough. If they are too narrow or too fast, then the sensor 'sees' low light; the same as if there was little available light and the aperture was wide and the shutter speed slow.

If you are judging the available light in my images on the basis of how well exposed they look, that's only because the ISO has been cranked up. And cranking the ISO up is what generates the noise.

Edited October 8, 2023 by LocalHero1953