Need help buidling a system

[macdaddy]

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Here's my dilemma: I'm in the middle of a photo book project and have been using a Pentax K10D system to date without a lot of satisfaction, particularly with its AF and quality of photos. The book will feature LOTS of architectural (Insides, as well as outsides of buildings) and people shots in color.

I'm considering dumping the whole system before I get too far into the project and getting either a:

Nikon D3 FF with their new 14-24mm/f2.8 or 24-70mm/f2.8 lens OR an M8 and ???. I have a possible budget of no more than $7,000 to buy everything I'll need. I prefer wide primes, don't mind buying demo or used (Probably from Pop Flash), have to stay with a digital workflow and am willing to be creative using just a single lens. I absolutely have to have the best IQ from that lens (or lenses) for this book, however, so those of you who actually own and have used an M8, suggest away!

My thoughts are an M8 and one of the new Summarit 35/f2.5 lenses.

Thanks,

Rob W

[DaveB]

Were I to be buying another M8 body I would probably go for one of the demos offered by Kurland in order to get the warranty and filters at a very reasonable price. I wouldn't hesitate a moment to buy one of these rather than someone's new stock.

 

I think the 35mm Summicron ASPH is a must have with the M8. If you only have one Leica lens, this is probably the one. Clean used versions are commonly available and not too dear.

 

You still have enough left in your budget for a CV lens in the focal length of your choice to round out your kit. No one is disappointed in the 15mm CV, but it might not fit the needs of your current project. Many others to consider.

 

Or, better yet, use the remainder for a black alligator Luigi half case. With matching scarf and Oakley shades. You won't regret it.

[MJones]

Loads of great information at http://www.reidreviews.com

 

Probably the best $32 or whatever it is you'll spend in your camera budget.

[LichMD]

I agree with subscribing to sean's excellent site.

Invaluable for making informed decisions when it comes to the M8.

I wonder though, if you're happy with the results of the camera you're using should you change now and learn RF photography?

[macdaddy]

I wonder though, if you're happy with the results of the camera you're using should you change now and learn RF photography?

 

Actually, I came from a FILM RF background and moved to digital, so the only learning would be the Leica and its uniqueness. But the poor results I'm getting, even using Pentax' best Limited series lenses (and, yes, I am an experienced, semi-pro shooter!) has me scrambling for something better before I'm too deeply into the project to switch! Poor AF, lousy IQ and CA are just three issues I'm fighting.

Rob

[johnkuo]

35mm is great choice as a general lens for the M8, but keep in mind it becomes 45.5mm on the M8. That may not be wide enough for your architectural shots. How about an used M8 body + 24/2.8ASPH?

[psquared]

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I second John's suggestion of 24/2.8 asph if you're going to go with an M8. You can even throw in a CV 15/4.5 to the mix.

 

I know this is a Leica forum, but I have to mention this possibility. Since architectural shots are such an important part of your project, have you thought of something like a Canon 5D with Contax 35/2.8 PC shift lens and stitching? The lens would be good for some types of people shots also, although I wouldn't really use it for portraits. You can buy another lens or two for the people shots and stay well within your budget.

[Guest stnami]

Didn't do enough homework, I'd hire the equipment and then reconsider my position and needs once the job is completed.................digital is not always as easy as it seems

[MJones]

Actually, I came from a FILM RF background and moved to digital, so the only learning would be the Leica and its uniqueness. But the poor results I'm getting, even using Pentax' best Limited series lenses (and, yes, I am an experienced, semi-pro shooter!) has me scrambling for something better before I'm too deeply into the project to switch! Poor AF, lousy IQ and CA are just three issues I'm fighting.

Rob

 

I've already rec'd Sean Reid's reidreviews.com and it looks like he has a background in documentary and architectural photog so just the better knowing where he's coming from in his reviews. Sean Reid, Vermont Documentary Photographer Northeastern Imaging

 

Maybe a couple out of these. The voigtlanders could be new they are all under $500ea and the Zeiss used would be under $1000usd each. I'm thinking if it's architectural interiors you may want as fast as possible so the 12 and 15 might be out:

 

CV 12/5,6

CV 15/4,5

Zeiss 21/2,8

Zeiss 25/2,8

CV 28/1,9 which would be a 37mm on M8

Zeiss 35/2,0

 

You could probably get the M8, extra battery, thumbs up, CV 12 (or 15) and CV 28 and the LTM adapters, filters (code the 15 and 28) and stay within budget. A third lens would probably push you over.

 

I'm not sure how wide you mean by wide with the 1.3 crop. If it was me I'd try to get one Leica lens like the 21, 24, 28/2,0 or 35/1,4 (this one really) depending on how wide you want. Used of course. But any one of these plus the M8 will probably not be in budget.

[MJones]

I second John's suggestion of 24/2.8 asph if you're going to go with an M8. You can even throw in a CV 15/4.5 to the mix.

 

I know this is a Leica forum, but I have to mention this possibility. Since architectural shots are such an important part of your project, have you thought of something like a Canon 5D with Contax 35/2.8 PC shift lens and stitching? The lens would be good for some types of people shots also, although I wouldn't really use it for portraits. You can buy another lens or two for the people shots and stay well within your budget.

 

The 5d route staying in budget is a really good suggestion. Now, if getting back into RF (and digital in particular) is for long term then I can see getting the M8 now. It's the lenses that kill the budget after getting the M8, especially if you are trying to go with only Leica lenses.

 

I don't want to beat a dead horse on reidreviews but I was amazed at the quality that could be gotten for a fraction of the cost with all the other lens options out there besides Leica. I'd love to have just the Leica's as well but the many other options also perform very well and in some of the reviews they might perform "better." But I like how reid qualifies how one lens draws differently compared to another.

[giordano]

My thoughts are an M8 and one of the new Summarit 35/f2.5 lenses.

 

For me, 35mm on an M8 would have much too narrow a field of view for interiors. My dream outfit would be D3, 14-24, 35PC and 85PC (maybe I'm dreaming about the distortion performance of the 14-24, about which the Nikon site seems to be silent:) ). Or to keep things light and simple, M8 with two lenses: 12 or 15 and 24 or 25.

[Mark Pope]

I know this is a Leica forum, but I have to mention this possibility. Since architectural shots are such an important part of your project, have you thought of something like a Canon 5D with Contax 35/2.8 PC shift lens and stitching?

Peter's made a good point here. You could also consider using one or even two of the Canon TSE lenses? IIRC the widest TSE lens is 24mm, so you could get good front-to-back sharpness by using tilt and parallel verticals using shift (image circle permitting).

[tom0511]

I dont really understand if you think the Pentax AF is not good enough why you would switch to a manual camera.

Also a 35lens on a rangefinder IMO would not be the way to go for architecture.

what is wrong with IQ? Is it the sensor , or do you miss shift, or does your lens not show great IQ? I would analyse first whats wrong.

Also a Nikon ff with range from 14 to 70mm is something totally different than a M8+35mm. Sorry, but I think you first have to find out what you really want.

which focal length?

do you want full control (SLR + shift) for architecture?

do you need high iso or not?

do you want more pleasing lens for portrait or one clinical sharp etc. for architecture or something in between.

Is weight an issue or not

[sean_reid]

Here's my dilemma: I'm in the middle of a photo book project and have been using a Pentax K10D system to date without a lot of satisfaction, particularly with its AF and quality of photos. The book will feature LOTS of architectural (Insides, as well as outsides of buildings) and people shots in color.

I'm considering dumping the whole system before I get too far into the project and getting either a:

Nikon D3 FF with their new 14-24mm/f2.8 or 24-70mm/f2.8 lens OR an M8 and ???. I have a possible budget of no more than $7,000 to buy everything I'll need. I prefer wide primes, don't mind buying demo or used (Probably from Pop Flash), have to stay with a digital workflow and am willing to be creative using just a single lens. I absolutely have to have the best IQ from that lens (or lenses) for this book, however, so those of you who actually own and have used an M8, suggest away!

My thoughts are an M8 and one of the new Summarit 35/f2.5 lenses.

Thanks,

Rob W

 

Let's start with what's not working now. The Pentax AF system can give mixed results (especially if one is not using the center sensor method) but how are you processing the PEF files and what, specifically, do you find disappointing in them? Which specific Pentax lenses are you using and at what apertures are you seeing CA from which lenses? I've recently done CA tests for the 14, 21, 43 and 70 so I have some sense of them.

 

I'm currently testing a K10D and four Pentax lenses (thanks to John Camp) as well as one Zeiss ZK lens (and one more on its way). So, the Pentax performance is fresh in my mind.

 

I have some other ideas but first things first. Depending on various things, my gut sense is that both M8 and D3 may be worth considering. More when I hear more from you.

 

Cheers,

[macdaddy]

Let's start with what's not working now. The Pentax AF system can give mixed results (especially if one is not using the center sensor method) but how are you processing the PEF files and what, specifically, do you find disappointing in them? Which specific Pentax lenses are you using and at what apertures are you seeing CA from which lenses? I've recently done CA tests for the 14, 21, 43 and 70 so I have some sense of them.

 

I'm currently testing a K10D and four Pentax lenses (thanks to John Camp) as well as one Zeiss ZK lens (and one more on its way). So, the Pentax performance is fresh in my mind.

 

I have some other ideas but first things first. Depending on various things, my gut sense is that both M8 and D3 may be worth considering. More when I hear more from you.

 

Cheers,

Simply, when you shoot against a strong background, even using center AF focusing with the two main wide lenses I have, the DA 12-24/f4 and 16-45/f4, there is significant CA along the edges of the buildings, regardless of aperture. In a situation where you have to shoot up to 180 degrees against the sun on a clear, bright sky (even when doing this during the "golden hour" in either morning or evening) these two lenses CA badly. Carl Weese, a Connecticut pro photographer and friend, has documented this well. The 21mm/f3.2 (which I DON'T have) has known issues with back-focus, which has also been well documented. That is mainly due to its small size and helical focusing design, if memory serves me correctly. The FA 43mm and FA 77mm Limiteds that I also have are very good, especially for people shots and the IQ is quite acceptable. Using them is not an issue except for the field of view they offer vs. the wider lenses.

However, I had a chance to go out shooting 3 weeks ago with a friend who has an M8, Zeiss 25/f2.8 and Leica 35/f2.0, 50/f2.5, 75/f2.5 and CV 15 and when we both shot off my tripod (which is how I do 99% of my shooting) under as identical a setting as possible (i.e; I'd shoot a single photo using my lenses set to approximately the same focal lengths and aperture as his and he'd do the same immediately after me, usually within no more than 30 seconds) and then took them back and looked at the RAW files (I shoot in DNG only and use Photoshop CS3 Extended on a Mac) on a 30" Apple monitor, color calibrated and corrected, there is a visually noticeable difference in the sharpness between the two cameras shots, with the M8 being superior in image sharpness and IQ against even the Pentax Limiteds.

I should also mention here that I came out of an Technology background as an Apple-certified Systems Engineer responsible for providing network support at some of the "smaller" advertising agencies in America like BBDO, J Walter Thompson and Omnicom Companies until I was laid off 4 years ago and went back to college to finish a degree in English Literature with a minor in Photography, so I have a bit of experience "comping" photos from that 27 years of exposure to all the whiz kids at those companies. 8o)

As for processing, my current workflow is to bring the DNG files into PS CS3 using Bridge CS3, opening the RAW file, re-sizing it to the size I want for the book (6" X 9", either way), processing to correct whatever issues I have to resolve with the shot, and then doing a final sharpening using a modified high pass filter technique taught by Martin Evening and Kevin Ames. Finally, the file is saved to three different hard drives, burned to a DVD when I get approximately 8 GB worth of data and stored off-site.

BUT..it's not like the Pentax is giving photos so "sucky" they wouldn't work for this book, it's that I want this to be an outstanding photojournalistic project, not just a good one! For some idea where I'm headed, go to: David Plowden and look at his galleries for "Small Town America" and "Handful of Dust" and then think "COLOR!" I know he shoots everything using a Hassleblad with a 50mm lens, Ilford HP5 B & W film and a singular, controlled process, but I'm using digital and color and truly believe a 35mm camera with the right combination of lenses can do a better job than he does.

By the way, for those suggesting PC and tilt/shift lenses, etc. (and I'm dead serious about this tip!) have you ever considered simply using a ladder and Jobo tripod clamp to gain perspective? They work WONDERS!

Rob W

P.S. Yes; the D3 is a VERY serious consideration, with the new 14-24/f2.8 and 24-70/f2.8 lenses!

[sean_reid]

At 12:14 PM 11/17/2007, you wrote:

"Simply, when you shoot against a strong background, even using center AF focusing with the two main wide lenses I have, the DA 12-24/f4 and 16-45/f4, there is significant CA along the edges of the buildings, regardless of aperture."

 

I haven't tested the zooms. If you end up sticking with the Pentax, try the primes. What CA they have goes away quickly when they're stopped down.

 

" In a situation where you have to shoot up to 180 degrees against the sun on a clear, bright sky (even when doing this during the "golden hour" in either morning or evening) these two lenses CA badly. "

 

OK.

 

"Carl Weese, a Connecticut pro photographer and friend, has documented this well. The 21mm/f3.2 (which I DON'T have) has known issues with back-focus, which has also been well documented. That is mainly due to its small size and helical focusing design, if memory serves me correctly. "

 

Yes, the copy I'm testing has focus problems.

 

"The FA 43mm and FA 77mm Limiteds that I also have are very good, especially for people shots and the IQ is quite acceptable."

 

They're excellent.

 

"Using them is not an issue except for the field of view they offer vs. the wider lenses."

 

OK

 

"However, I had a chance to go out shooting 3 weeks ago with a friend who has an M8, Zeiss 25/f2.8 and Leica 35/f2.0, 50/f2.5, 75/f2.5 and CV 15 and when we both shot off my tripod (which is how I do 99% of my shooting) under as identical a setting as possible (i.e; I'd shoot a single photo using my lenses set to approximately the same focal lengths and aperture as his and he'd do the same immediately after me, usually within no more than 30 seconds) and then took them back and looked at the RAW files (I shoot in DNG only and use Photoshop CS3 Extended on a Mac) on a 30" Apple monitor, color calibrated and corrected, there is a visually noticeable difference in the sharpness between the two cameras shots, with the M8 being superior in image sharpness and IQ against even the Pentax Limiteds."

 

Absolutely. There's no comparison, in fact. But, if you do keep the K10D, know that is its capable of excellent results using good primes (including the Zeiss lenses I'm testing) if the PEF files are processed in C1. As the 1.5 crops cameras go, it does quite well.

 

"I should also mention here that I came out of an Technology background as an Apple-certified Systems Engineer responsible for providing network support at some of the "smaller" advertising agencies in America like BBDO, J Walter Thompson and Omnicom Companies until I was laid off 4 years ago and went back to college to finish a degree in English Literature with a minor in Photography, so I have a bit of experience "comping" photos from that 27 years of exposure to all the whiz kids at those companies."

 

OK, I'm just trying to help you troubleshoot so as to refine a sense of what to do next. If its not helpful, let me know.

 

"As for processing, my current workflow is to bring the DNG files into PS CS3 using Bridge CS3, opening the RAW file, re-sizing it to the size I want for the book (6" X 9", either way), processing to correct whatever issues I have to resolve with the shot, and then doing a final sharpening using a modified high pass filter technique taught by Martin Evening and Kevin Ames."

 

Try shooting PEFs and processing in C1...just see what you think.

 

 

"BUT..it's not like the Pentax is giving photos so "sucky" they wouldn't work for this book",

 

Quite true.

 

" it's that I want this to be an outstanding photojournalistic project, not just a good one! For some idea where I'm headed, go to: David Plowden and look at his galleries for "Small Town America" and "Handful of Dust" and then think "COLOR!" I know he shoots everything using a Hassleblad with a 50mm lens, Ilford HP5 B & W film and a singular, controlled process, but I'm using digital and color and truly believe a 35mm camera with the right combination of lenses can do a better job than he does."

 

OK, your camera list (small format film factor) is pretty short: DMR, M8, 5D, 1Ds series and, likely, D3. First-class, fully coupled, ultra-wides for the Canon pose a challenge but life is good from 35 up. The Nikon can use Zeiss lenses with full coupling as well as Nikon lenses, so that's a big plus. And if you don't need shift lenses (I use them constantly for architecture - a ladder is not the same thing) and don't mind the filters then, yes, the M8 will give excellent results. You're planning to shoot the interiors with just a 35 though? Is it just details you're after?

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[macdaddy]

At 12:14 PM 11/17/2007, you wrote:

Absolutely. There's no comparison, in fact. But, if you do keep the K10D, know that is its capable of excellent results using good primes (including the Zeiss lenses I'm testing) if the PEF files are processed in C1. As the 1.5 crops cameras go, it does quite well.

Cheers,

 

Sean

First, thanks Sean for the feedback. I wasn't getting "uppity"; just wanted you to know a bit more about my background! Everything you said was spot-on, but I DO have to add that when you don't have shift/tilt lenses or cameras, you CAN do a pretty fair approximation using a ladder and some careful framing! 8o)

I won't get rid of the Pentax; the primes are wonderful for what they do and there will be situations where they will be useful. And, no, I don't plan on using 35mm as a focal length indoors (or out) if I can find a wider prime. Zeiss lenses are wonderful, although a friend thinks the bokeh is harsher than either Pentax or Leica for a given focal length, and if I go with ANY of the 3 systems under use or consideration (Pentax, Nikon or Leica) they make some outstanding primes at far better prices sometimes than comparable Leica lenses! (And even some Nikon ones!)

So much to consider (and for personal reasons, Canon won't even hit my radar!) and I promise a followup when it happens sometime before Christmas. Thanks to all who contributed and as soon as I can find my credit card, Sean, I'm signing up for your site!

Rob W

[giordano]

By the way, for those suggesting PC and tilt/shift lenses, etc. (and I'm dead serious about this tip!) have you ever considered simply using a ladder and Jobo tripod clamp to gain perspective? They work WONDERS!

 

But not the same wonders ... and I know which I'd rather travel with;)

[jklotz]

I'm a professional architectural shooter. It is what I do for a living. I don't use my M8 for assignment work. If you want to do it right, you must have some sort of perspective control. PS does an ok job of correcting perspective if you don't mind the loss of micro detail, however, it is next to impossible to not alter the porportions of the shot, as you don't have the visual reference you'd have if you were there. (hope that makes sense). A good way to really piss off an architect! So the way I see it, assuming this project is important and needs to be done right, and I'm sure many will disagree, is your optionse are:

 

listed from cheapest to most expensive;

 

5D w/ t/s lenses (which would allow you to do your portriats and people stuff as well)

4x5 with film

6x9 with a digital back (they are getting cheaper...)

best solution - an x y system like the cambo wide ds w/ a digital back (not cheap)

 

or you may want to consider keeping your current camera and renting a large format system when the shots demand. I've been through this, and bought and sold a lot of cameras over the years to find the perfect system. Fugi GX680, Mamiya RZ's, 5d w/ t/s lenses. You name it, I've tried it. Nothing will give you the results of a large format system, trust me.

 

James

James Klotz: Architectural & Commercial Photography

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[MJones]

...it is next to impossible to not alter the porportions of the shot, as you don't have the visual reference you'd have if you were there. (hope that makes sense). A good way to really piss off an architect!

 

James

James Klotz: Architectural & Commercial Photography

 

Thanks for adding other alternatives. Would you explain more on "proportions of the shot" and "visual reference." Is that proportions of the image itself and a reference for scale if the the building and architecture (i.e. person's height). If you have examples of good and bad that would be wonderful.

 

And then more on how this relates to the camera choice. Obviously the list goes from smaller image area to larger image area. Is that a function of capturing more detail so it's not lost or something else inherent to larger formats.

 

Thank you