Which M shares SL2 colour science ?

[grahamc]

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Hi SL2 users

I'm looking for some advice from SL2 users who are familiar with using M10/M10-R,M11 .. 

I'm considering a new camera have just done a deep-dive into Flickr images of various Leica cameras. In doing so I've realised I picked out a lot of images shot with either Q2 or SL2.   I realise there is a lot of variables at play (photographer ability light , post-production) but despite that I was still surprised so may of the images I was drawn to were shot with Q2 or SL2 

Firstly, is it possible those 2 cameras share a similar colour science ?

Regardless of that, would anyone here be able to advise which of the M mount cameras (M10 and onward) share the closest colour science to SL2 ?  I would prefer to purchase M camera since I have a lot of glass and also don't have back up for my M (the 10-D).

I've posted the same question in Q forum about the Q2

Thanks in advance of any help! 

Graham 

Edited September 23, 2023 by grahamc

[LeicaR10]

Grahamc,   Based on my experience with the SL2, M10 and M10-R, I suggest the former is closest to the latter two.  Color perception is subjective.  I believe others have commented on the color being quite close as well for the SL2 and M10 cameras.  If you subscribe to Reid Reviews, he talks about the color of the cameras as well.  Then again, I could be color blind... and just my opinion based on my experience.  r/ Mark

Edited September 23, 2023 by LeicaR10

[jaapv]

Colour science is rather universal and theoretical. I guess that you refer to the choices Leica made for the Bayer Filter and IR filter coating. The rest is software. Given this basis you can easily near-match the colour output of any two cameras. Simplistically: Shoot a profile using the X-rite Passport and use their software to create camera profiles for your DNG converter. If you match Leicas the colours will be near-identical, other brands will be close enough for any practical purpose. 
The differences you see now are mainly determined by the camera profiles Adobe (or other software companies) created. 

[grahamc]

43 minutes ago, LeicaR10 said:

Grahamc,   Based on my experience with the SL2, M10 and M10-R, I suggest the former is closest to the latter two.  Color perception is subjective.  I believe others have commented on the color being quite close as well for the SL2 and M10 cameras.  If you subscribe to Reid Reviews, he talks about the color of the cameras as well.  Then again, I could be color blind... and just my opinion based on my experience.  r/ Mark

Thankyou Mark, that also matches my observations and I'll also check out Reid reviews .  Appreciate it 

[grahamc]

4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Colour science is rather universal and theoretical. I guess that you refer to the choices Leica made for the Bayer Filter and IR filter coating. The rest is software. Given this basis you can easily near-match the colour output of any two cameras. Simplistically: Shoot a profile using the X-rite Passport and use their software to create camera profiles for your DNG converter. If you match Leicas the colours will be near-identical, other brands will be close enough for any practical purpose. 
The differences you see now are mainly determined by the camera profiles Adobe (or other software companies) created. 

OK interesting thanks.  Do you mean create a camera profile for, say, Lightroom using the camera you most prefer (lets say out of my collection that's M10).  After which the Lightroom profile will apply those colours to DNG on import (eg importing DNG from another brand of camera)?     Am I understanding that correctly ?

 

Cheers Jaapv 

Edited September 23, 2023 by grahamc

[jaapv]

No. The colour profiles are specific to the camera you use and the light that you used. So if you create colour profiles for two different cameras under the same light the resultant basic colour you see  in your post processing will be near-identical between the two. Obviously this will equalize the postprocessing process and eliminate the camera output factor. 
you can minimize the influence of the light by creating so-called dual illuminant profiles. 
Colour in post-processing is not created by the camera but by the software. The camera produces a colour preset made by the firmware. For JPG that is baked in, with DNG just an instruction for the DNG converter.

The only hardware difference is in the Bayer filter but that is just a subtle bias compared to the major changes in software and vagaries of the light. 

[grahamc]

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15 minutes ago, jaapv said:

No. The colour profiles are specific to the camera you use and the light that you used. So if you create colour profiles for two different cameras under the same light the resultant basic colour you see  in your post processing will be near-identical between the two. Obviously this will equalize the postprocessing process and eliminate the camera output factor. 
you can minimize the influence of the light by creating so-called dual illuminant profiles. 
Colour in post-processing is not created by the camera but by the software. The camera produces a colour preset made by the firmware. For JPG that is baked in, with DNG just an instruction for the DNG converter.

The only hardware difference is in the Bayer filter but that is just a subtle bias compared to the major changes in software and vagaries of the light. 

Thanks, I see .  That's good to know and sounds very useful under certain circumstances although presumably the identity of both of the cameras inherent 'output factor' is lost ?

Since I particularly like the colour rendering of the cameras I mentioned, I'm rather looking to emulate rather than override

[Stuart Richardson]

I don't recall the SL2 color looking all that similar to the M10, but memory can be playing tricks on me. I think the closest is the Q2, for obvious reasons (they share a sensor and one came out shortly after the another). Subjectively, the M10 seemed to produce good color, but it did not wow me. The SL2 did. I like the Adobe Standard profile with the SL2, but I eventually bought the Cobal Imaging profiles because I liked them so much with the S3. I don't think they change the look very substantially in the SL2, but they do one or two things I quite like...they make the skies a bit more blue/magenta rather than heavy towards cyan, like most Adobe profiles, and they have better gamut handling, so think things like bright colors, sunsets, high visibility clothing and signs, neon lights etc. They handle the gamut clipping a lot better and more naturally in my experience. Overall the effect is more natural, which is what I like most in a good profile. If I want to adjust things later I can, but I would rather have the results out of camera looking as close to the scene as possible.

I think you would be fine with just the M10 profile, but I would consider giving the Cobalt Imagine profiles a try. They do not take away any Leica magic...it is just Adobe's interpretation vs Cobalt's. In this case, Cobalt's seems more natural and pleasing to my eye.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

[Stuart Richardson]

12 minutes ago, grahamc said:

Thanks, I see .  That's good to know and sounds very useful under certain circumstances although presumably the identity of both of the cameras inherent 'output factor' is lost ?

Since I particularly like the colour rendering of the cameras I mentioned, I'm rather looking to emulate rather than override

I don't think this is quite accurate. I don't think the unique identity of the camera will disappear, and while one of the promises of profiles is to make all output look similar, it does not really accomplish that in my experience. Cameras still have their signatures. That said, there can be things that have an impact in the profiles in addition to the color. Adobe seems particularly aggressive in their profiles of late, and their adobe color profile in particular tends to make the contrast curve punchier, desaturate certain colors or colors in the shadows etc. This was particularly apparent in the S3, and one of the reasons I really struggled to begin with with the color. The SL2 is not quite as affected, but the Abobe Standard profile is a bit more neutral. Basically, the profile is more the raw developer's taste than the camera company's, except in the case where they work together or adobe is trying to emulate camera company profiles.

 

[grahamc]

7 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I don't think this is quite accurate. I don't think the unique identity of the camera will disappear, and while one of the promises of profiles is to make all output look similar, it does not really accomplish that in my experience. Cameras still have their signatures. That said, there can be things that have an impact in the profiles in addition to the color. Adobe seems particularly aggressive in their profiles of late, and their adobe color profile in particular tends to make the contrast curve punchier, desaturate certain colors or colors in the shadows etc. This was particularly apparent in the S3, and one of the reasons I really struggled to begin with with the color. The SL2 is not quite as affected, but the Abobe Standard profile is a bit more neutral. Basically, the profile is more the raw developer's taste than the camera company's, except in the case where they work together or adobe is trying to emulate camera company profiles.

 

OK thanks , I see.  I have some of the Cobalt film emulation profiles and agree they don't make colour output the same, for example they play particularly nicely with my M10 DNGs, but not so nicely with other camera brands I own.

Appreciate the thoughts on the M10, Q2 and SL2 colours.  By the way I wasn't saying that the M10 matches SL2, I was referring to the fact that in reviewing SL2 and Q2 images I found that I particularly liked their colour (makes sense now since you mention they are the same sensor).  So as an M user I was asking which of the M range from M10 to M11 would give me the closest rendition to Q2/SL2

Maybe one of the options to consider is an Sl2 with adapted M glass.  I hadn't really thought seriously about that before and one of the things I'm looking for is a MP bump from my 10-D .   Unfortunately I'm not fully sold on M11 at this point and also see a magenta cast in the colours.

[Photoworks]

I think both Capture One and Adobe have similar profiles.

I typically use Capture One because it is quicker to edit large quantities.

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