Early Elmar 50mm 1:3,5; Circa 1928, Font and Kerning like Elmax, No serial number.

[jp757]

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Hello.

Wanted to share this lens because it features what appears to be the Elmax font and kerning. The height of the letters appears shorter than other early Elmar lenses.. The tittle (dot over the "i" (I had to look that word up)) appears very small. The bottom of the "t" does not hook upward much. I see no curl(?) on the bottom of the "a". The "m" in "Elmar" Appears appears identical to the "mm" markings.

The lens appears to have a nickle distance scale and brass threads and came with a Leica l (a?) no.12931. The lens is removable but with 33mm thread diameter.

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I'm curious if anything else stands-out. If anyone wants to elaborate or correct any information that would be very welcome.

[alan mcfall]

Here is a similar font elmar I'm working on. Perhaps the earliest Elmars used the same (Elmax?) font for a while. E.G., camera 2025 seems to also use this "early" font. Regards.

 

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[jerzy]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb jp757:

came with a Leica l (a?) no.12931

This smaller font was used, according to v.Einem, until approx camera number 12300. Possibly 12300 is not quite correct or your camera was assembled earlier than 12300.
Camera and lens were converted later to receive exchangeable mount and new tube (possibly more fetaures on camera have been updated). Front ring was retained from original lens.

And your lens is missing flange with the distance scale, it has 39mm thread. Possibly it is still on the camera and lens was unscrewed not quite correct. If you will have difficulties with screwing lens on (it is multitherad) than people here may give you advise

[willeica]

3 hours ago, jerzy said:

This smaller font was used, according to v.Einem, until approx camera number 12300. Possibly 12300 is not quite correct or your camera was assembled earlier than 12300.
Camera and lens were converted later to receive exchangeable mount and new tube (possibly more fetaures on camera have been updated). Front ring was retained from original lens.

And your lens is missing flange with the distance scale, it has 39mm thread. Possibly it is still on the camera and lens was unscrewed not quite correct. If you will have difficulties with screwing lens on (it is multitherad) than people here may give you advise

We need to see the lens mount. This one appears to have the scale which came in c SN 40000, but that does not mean that the lens head is not original. I have a number of lenses where such an exchange was made. A very early Elmar lens head should look like this example here which comes from No 1661.

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William 

[jp757]

23 hours ago, alan mcfall said:

Here is a similar font elmar I'm working on. Perhaps the earliest Elmars used the same (Elmax?) font for a while. E.G., camera 2025 seems to also use this "early" font. Regards.

 

 

I like your train of thought regarding font. Thank you for sharing that Elmar picture for comparison. After posting this, I found this brochure image https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/images/f/f5/IA-dwg.jpg. The brochure image appears to match my camera and lens and the lens font. 

20 hours ago, jerzy said:

This smaller font was used, according to v.Einem, until approx camera number 12300. Possibly 12300 is not quite correct or your camera was assembled earlier than 12300.
Camera and lens were converted later to receive exchangeable mount and new tube (possibly more fetaures on camera have been updated). Front ring was retained from original lens.

And your lens is missing flange with the distance scale, it has 39mm thread. Possibly it is still on the camera and lens was unscrewed not quite correct. If you will have difficulties with screwing lens on (it is multitherad) than people here may give you advise

Interesting to see that these that someone has dated this change and it appears pretty accurate based on another example. Regarding the mount, that makes a lot of sense. I am still catching up on standard, non-standard, interchangeable, and removable timeline. The scale that's on the camera is circular with the top portion cropped, I haven't messed with it much but I think I understand what mean with the multithread. I'm adding some pictured below if you're interested in seeing them.

16 hours ago, willeica said:

We need to see the lens mount. This one appears to have the scale which came in c SN 40000, but that does not mean that the lens head is not original. I have a number of lenses where such an exchange was made. A very early Elmar lens head should look like this example here which comes from No 1661.

 

William 

Thank you for your comments. I've added some more pictures. Also, linked a brochure image above (not sure of the original source) that appears to match the camera and lens.

100_0056222.tif

100_0059.tif100_0061.tif

[jp757]

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Here are jpegs. Tiffs didn't work opps.

[jerzy]

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I made a mistake - camera is still IA and the lens is non-interchangeable. Lens has been modified by adding DOF (Depth of Field) scale - as William mentioned very common addition. And, as far as I can judge the photos, camera has been modified by modifying release button (and some other parts inside). The modyfication on camera makes film rewind easier, as well, rather common modification

Edited August 22, 2023 by jerzy

[willeica]

8 hours ago, jp757 said:

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Here are jpegs. Tiffs didn't work opps.

The depth of field scale in the earliest  Elmars has no 7 metre mark. This is 1783 which is in my collection. You can also use this to compare your front engraving 

 

 

By the time your 12931 was made, the 7 metre mark would have been added. According to von Einem's book on I Model As with Elmars, the depth of field scale on the lens mount was added c 41300 in June 1930. However, it is not uncommon to find this feature added to earlier cameras.

Von Einem's book, which was only published in German, is now out of print. I was lucky enough to get an official English translation some years ago. It shows many variations of the I Model A with Elmar and Jerzy and I found some more. I would not worry unduly about engravings. Your item looks very genuine to me.

William 

[jp757]

22 hours ago, jerzy said:

I made a mistake - camera is still IA and the lens is non-interchangeable. Lens has been modified by adding DOF (Depth of Field) scale - as William mentioned very common addition. And, as far as I can judge the photos, camera has been modified by modifying release button (and some other parts inside). The modyfication on camera makes film rewind easier, as well, rather common modification

Thank you for your input. Less of a mistake and more of limited information from me.

Looks like there was another mod ( not pictured ) now that you mention mods. The tripod thread on the base plate has an insert making it slightly more robust.

I added some more pictures of different set that I got with the original posted camera and lens. Again, my knowledge is mostly from this site and is shaky. A couple interesting finds 1.) a pretty early "fat elmar" . got some good info from you guys here: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/354306-interesting-early-elmar-90mm-f4/

and 2.) an interesting lens adapter. From what I make of it: the camera body (53445) was modded with the standard flange ring marked "0". This Elmar lens is non-standard marked "074" and should correspond to the original body serial (?). There is also a "3" marked under the focusing lever but I couldn't find what that would indicate. The adapter appears to be custom shimmed, has a two internal springs, and clamps onto the body via thumbs screw. The adapter is very well made but nothing on it indicates its a leitz product.

Just thought I'd share here and not make another post.

15 hours ago, willeica said:

The depth of field scale in the earliest  Elmars has no 7 metre mark. This is 1783 which is in my collection. You can also use this to compare your front engraving

By the time your 12931 was made, the 7 metre mark would have been added. According to von Einem's book on I Model As with Elmars, the depth of field scale on the lens mount was added c 41300 in June 1930. However, it is not uncommon to find this feature added to earlier cameras.

Von Einem's book, which was only published in German, is now out of print. I was lucky enough to get an official English translation some years ago. It shows many variations of the I Model A with Elmar and Jerzy and I found some more. I would not worry unduly about engravings. Your item looks very genuine to me.

William 

I didn't notice the the 7 meter mark, thanks for pointing that out. That book sounds like a very good resource. What a find! Thank you for your input it is very appreciated. I wasn't so much worried as curious.

I added some more pictures of different set that I got with the original posted camera and lens that had a couple of interesting things.

Again, my knowledge is mostly from this site and is shaky. A couple interesting finds

1.) a pretty early "fat elmar" . got some good info from you guys here: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/354306-interesting-early-elmar-90mm-f4/

and 2.) an interesting lens adapter. From what I make of it: the camera body (53445) was modded with the standard flange ring marked "0". This Elmar lens is non-standard marked "074" and should correspond to an original body serial (?). There is also a "3" marked under the focusing lever but I couldn't find what that would indicate. The adapter appears to be custom shimmed, has a two internal springs, and clamps onto the body via thumbs screw. The adapter is very well made but nothing on it indicates its a leitz product. Maybe this person lost their original elmar and had to adapt this donor.

Just thought I'd share here and not make another post.

 

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Thanks again for the information everyone.

[jerzy]

more than one question here🙂
- 53445, according to production list (Hahne) was IA with Hektor 5cm f2,5 lens. Camera has been modified (most probably by Leitz) to IC standartized (you mentioned 0 on the flange). On this occasion lens received as well interchangteable mount. Lens is not within the set you are showing
-lens adapter: custom made, most probably not Leitz (as you mentioned). The only use of such adapater that I can think of is to make close ditances possible, depending on  how thick it is it could be 0,5m or even closer. But the lens with adapter will not focus at infinity, so it is for special purposes
- Elmar 5cm: the "3" means real focus length, group 3 has 48,6mm, the shortest within Elmar family, often to be found within older Elmars. I have impression that lens tube is chromed and not nickeled. What is the black dot on tube (orange arrow)? Is the tube not fully extracted? Is there 0 engreaved on DOF ring (blue arrow)? 074 means that it was paired with camera xx074 before, or someone (not Leitz) just used another ring as spare
-Elmar 3,5cm - does it have any number like 074, does it have 0 engraved? 
- it is really Fat Elmar, serial indicates that it is standartized and coupled with rangefinder, so later than the camera

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[willeica]

6 hours ago, jerzy said:

more than one question here🙂
- 53445, according to production list (Hahne) was IA with Hektor 5cm f2,5 lens. Camera has been modified (most probably by Leitz) to IC standartized (you mentioned 0 on the flange). On this occasion lens received as well interchangteable mount. Lens is not within the set you are showing
-lens adapter: custom made, most probably not Leitz (as you mentioned). The only use of such adapater that I can think of is to make close ditances possible, depending on  how thick it is it could be 0,5m or even closer. But the lens with adapter will not focus at infinity, so it is for special purposes
- Elmar 5cm: the "3" means real focus length, group 3 has 48,6mm, the shortest within Elmar family, often to be found within older Elmars. I have impression that lens tube is chromed and not nickeled. What is the black dot on tube (orange arrow)? Is the tube not fully extracted? Is there 0 engreaved on DOF ring (blue arrow)? 074 means that it was paired with camera xx074 before, or someone (not Leitz) just used another ring as spare
-Elmar 3,5cm - does it have any number like 074, does it have 0 engraved? 
- it is really Fat Elmar, serial indicates that it is standartized and coupled with rangefinder, so later than the camera

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I agree with Jerzy on everything. By far the most interesting thing is the clamp-like device. I know that Jerzy does servicing work on early Leicas and maybe he would like to comment on the following. My understanding is that, prior to standardisation with an 0 marked lens and ring, matching was done by using a ground glass screen held up beside the hole at the back with the plug removed. Shims would be inserted behind the lens mount ring on the front of the camera in order to match the lens with the camera and give appropriate focus at the marked distances. Without handling the device it is difficult to be definitive, but can jp757 confirm whether this might be possible using it? By extending the lens close up possibilities might also exist, but this seems to be more elaborate than would be required for that and the device seems to have functionality at both the front and the back. 

Just a few thoughts.

William 

[alan mcfall]

Top is 10309 with smaller early font, lower is 12319 with larger later font. The adaptor is a FULET, an unmarked Leitz NY product, a ground glass is inserted in the frame, the lens focused, then the ground glass is removed and a camera placed in position for the photo.  See Lager, Not many made, I have a few, if I can find them I will send a photo. Not unlike the VEHIG, sort of forerunners to the sliding focus attachment of NY, where Wetzlar went with a rotating device, OORES. FULET is a more economical version of the sliding copy device, known in the literature as a Model 2.

 

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Edited August 23, 2023 by alan mcfall

[Yerman]

On 8/21/2023 at 1:42 AM, jp757 said:

Hello.

Wanted to share this lens because it features what appears to be the Elmax font and kerning. The height of the letters appears shorter than other early Elmar lenses.. The tittle (dot over the "i" (I had to look that word up)) appears very small. The bottom of the "t" does not hook upward much. I see no curl(?) on the bottom of the "a". The "m" in "Elmar" Appears appears identical to the "mm" markings.

The lens appears to have a nickle distance scale and brass threads and came with a Leica l (a?) no.12931. The lens is removable but with 33mm thread diameter.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I'm curious if anything else stands-out. If anyone wants to elaborate or correct any information that would be very welcome.

 

[Yerman]

Have a very similar lens, I think a bit later than yours.

would love any info about it

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,

TIA

Edited August 23, 2023 by Yerman

[willeica]

2 hours ago, alan mcfall said:

Top is 10309 with smaller early font, lower is 12319 with larger later font. The adaptor is a FULET, an unmarked Leitz NY product, a ground glass is inserted in the frame, the lens focused, then the ground glass is removed and a camera placed in position for the photo.  See Lager, Not many made, I have a few, if I can find them I will send a photo. Not unlike the VEHIG, sort of forerunners to the sliding focus attachment of NY, where Wetzlar went with a rotating device, OORES. FULET is a more economical version of the sliding copy device, known in the literature as a Model 2.

 

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Thanks a million, Alan. I had the right idea, but the wrong purpose. It is on page 138 of Jim Lager's Accessories book. It is quite rare, apparently.

 

William 

[alan mcfall]

 

In this photo, the item on the left appears to be the FULET, but with some variation, the second from the left is I believe a true FULET, the next item is a British similar unit from Stewarty, and the final item on the right is likely a far-east copy. The Stewarty device is marked "Bri...     From a 2020 posting in the forum to answer Pecole, I sure miss his contributions.

 

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Edited August 23, 2023 by alan mcfall

[willeica]

14 hours ago, alan mcfall said:

 

In this photo, the item on the left appears to be the FULET, but with some variation, the second from the left is I believe a true FULET, the next item is a British similar unit from Stewarty, and the final item on the right is likely a far-east copy. The Stewarty device is marked "Bri...     From a 2020 posting in the forum to answer Pecole, I sure miss his contributions.

 

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Thanks Alan. The Stewartry item is probably the second one listed below - 'A simplified focussing focussing copier for Leica and Contax cameras for all close up and experimental work". The FULET could probably be described in the same way. 

William 

[jp757]

On 8/22/2023 at 10:53 PM, jerzy said:

more than one question here🙂
- 53445, according to production list (Hahne) was IA with Hektor 5cm f2,5 lens. Camera has been modified (most probably by Leitz) to IC standartized (you mentioned 0 on the flange). On this occasion lens received as well interchangteable mount. Lens is not within the set you are showing
-lens adapter: custom made, most probably not Leitz (as you mentioned). The only use of such adapater that I can think of is to make close ditances possible, depending on  how thick it is it could be 0,5m or even closer. But the lens with adapter will not focus at infinity, so it is for special purposes
- Elmar 5cm: the "3" means real focus length, group 3 has 48,6mm, the shortest within Elmar family, often to be found within older Elmars. I have impression that lens tube is chromed and not nickeled. What is the black dot on tube (orange arrow)? Is the tube not fully extracted? Is there 0 engreaved on DOF ring (blue arrow)? 074 means that it was paired with camera xx074 before, or someone (not Leitz) just used another ring as spare
-Elmar 3,5cm - does it have any number like 074, does it have 0 engraved? 
- it is really Fat Elmar, serial indicates that it is standartized and coupled with rangefinder, so later than the camera

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Hi. Thanks for the information regarding the original lens and serial numbers. I don't see the coupling on the Fat Elmar no. 96667 and was under the impression that this Fat Elmar was fairly old but can't remember what ( or if correct ) reference was used. The groove that was cut into the "lens adapter" was about 2mm thick.

The lens wasn't fully extended in that picture. Both of the arrows are pointing at small screw-holes/screws -- I looked the lens over again and don't see any "0".

The Elmar 3,5cm does have the "0" marking in two spots. One is where your blue arrow points to in the Elmar 50 and the other is on the underside of the lens. I couldn't find any "074" other markings on the Elmar 3,5cm.

On 8/23/2023 at 5:30 AM, willeica said:

I agree with Jerzy on everything. By far the most interesting thing is the clamp-like device. I know that Jerzy does servicing work on early Leicas and maybe he would like to comment on the following. My understanding is that, prior to standardisation with an 0 marked lens and ring, matching was done by using a ground glass screen held up beside the hole at the back with the plug removed. Shims would be inserted behind the lens mount ring on the front of the camera in order to match the lens with the camera and give appropriate focus at the marked distances. Without handling the device it is difficult to be definitive, but can jp757 confirm whether this might be possible using it? By extending the lens close up possibilities might also exist, but this seems to be more elaborate than would be required for that and the device seems to have functionality at both the front and the back. 

Just a few thoughts.

William 

I guess we got the answer about the FULET. If I understand what your saying this is the area that would have been normal shimmed.

The inside has some pencil markings -- which isn't unusual I understand. But, maybe a clue for something I'm not aware of... it appears like 7,15 or 7,45

On 8/23/2023 at 11:12 AM, alan mcfall said:

Top is 10309 with smaller early font, lower is 12319 with larger later font. The adaptor is a FULET, an unmarked Leitz NY product, a ground glass is inserted in the frame, the lens focused, then the ground glass is removed and a camera placed in position for the photo.  See Lager, Not many made, I have a few, if I can find them I will send a photo. Not unlike the VEHIG, sort of forerunners to the sliding focus attachment of NY, where Wetzlar went with a rotating device, OORES. FULET is a more economical version of the sliding copy device, known in the literature as a Model 2.

 

 

On 8/23/2023 at 2:04 PM, alan mcfall said:

 

In this photo, the item on the left appears to be the FULET, but with some variation, the second from the left is I believe a true FULET, the next item is a British similar unit from Stewarty, and the final item on the right is likely a far-east copy. The Stewarty device is marked "Bri...     From a 2020 posting in the forum to answer Pecole, I sure miss his contributions.

 

Thank you for this information and photo! Mine appears like sample #1 from that angle, it has the same squared cut below the ground glass. The sample #2 appears to have a slightly rounded cutout beneath the ground glass. Another observation is that: mine appears to have about 5mm cut off from the top (lens mount side) making the top of the FULET flush with the camera top plate . The three grooves at the top (lens mount side) of your sample #2 apear to extend higher than on mine. I suspect that mine may have been cropped to allow the viewfinder on the camera to be unobstructed by the device.

Again, thank you everyone.

[jerzy]

I am traveling, replying on my iPhone thus very limited in editing possibilities…
- black dot on Elmar 5cm tube -it is mud screw fixing optical cell to the lens tube. 074 and missing 0 mean that lens is not standardized, using it on regular Leica would most probably not focus correctly. But because it it for use with adapter this is of no relevance
- Elmar 3,5cm - it it standardized, early standardized lenses have as well 0 stamped at the rear
- camera: lens flange is mounted not properly, 0 shall be at 12 o’clock. Not sure what 7,15 means, could be that this is distance flange-film plane, 27,15 mm (standard is 28,8mm)
 

Edited August 25, 2023 by jerzy

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