100 years Null-Serie

[Roland Zwiers]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

William, Bill, Pedaes (Keith?), Lex,

Thank you for your clarifications and no hard feelings.

Yes, any source that can shed light on this early period is welcome!
I did not know of the existence of the manuscript by Conrad Barnack.
Who knows it has inside pictures of the period 1912-1914 that can shed more light on our discussion.

I fully agree with Bill that the memory of a 4-year old may not be perfect.
But if it includes the picture of 1912, with the 13x18 outfit in his hands, that would be very significant.
Could we infer with what camera this picture has been taken?
Equally important would be to have a look at the Barnack family albums of this period.

The manuscript of Conrad Barnack reminds me of other manuscripts that, unfortunately, are not readily available for research.
I already mentioned the significance of Oskar Barnack's work notes (Werkstattbuch).
But there must also be an unfinished auto-biographic manuscript by Dr Paul Wolff.
For our understanding of the Null-Serie users this manuscript would be very important as well.

In Leica literature (pre-and post-1945) there are several accounts on the first meeting between Oskar Barnack and Dr Paul Wolff.
Was this in 1921, 1922, 1923?

Also, I would like to get in touch with Hans-Günter Kisselbach on his fascinating book on Oskar Barnack's Handmuster camera.
I tried to ask people who must be familiar with him, but so far have received no reply.
Let us hope that he is still alive and kicking.

Roland

 

 

 

 

 

 

in the public domain.

[Roland Zwiers]

William, Bill, Pedaes (Keith?), Lex,

Thank you for your clarifications and no hard feelings.

Yes, any source that can shed light on this early period is welcome!
I did not know of the existence of the manuscript by Conrad Barnack.
Who knows it has inside pictures of the period 1912-1914 that can shed more light on our discussion.

I fully agree with Bill that the memory of a 4-year old may not be perfect.
But if it includes the picture of 1912, with the 13x18 outfit in his hands, that would be very significant.
Could we infer with what camera this picture has been taken?
Equally important would be to have a look at the Barnack family albums of this period.

The manuscript of Conrad Barnack reminds me of other manuscripts that, unfortunately, are not readily available for research.
I already mentioned the significance of Oskar Barnack's work notes (Werkstattbuch).
But there must also be an unfinished auto-biographic manuscript by Dr Paul Wolff.
For our understanding of the Null-Serie users this manuscript would be very important as well.

In Leica literature (pre-and post-1945) there are several accounts on the first meeting between Oskar Barnack and Dr Paul Wolff.
Was this in 1921, 1922, 1923?

Also, I would like to get in touch with Hans-Günter Kisselbach on his fascinating book on Oskar Barnack's Handmuster camera.
I tried to ask people who must be familiar with him, but so far have received no reply.
Let us hope that he is still alive and kicking.

Roland

 

[Roland Zwiers]

William, Bill, Pedaes (Keith?), Lex,

Thank you for your clarifications and no hard feelings.

Yes, any source that can shed light on this early period is welcome!
I did not know of the existence of the manuscript by Conrad Barnack.
Who knows it has inside pictures of the period 1912-1914 that can shed more light on our discussion.

I fully agree with Bill that the memory of a 4-year old may not be perfect.
But if it includes the picture of 1912, with the 13x18 outfit in his hands, that would be very significant.
Could we infer with what camera this picture has been taken?
Equally important would be to have a look at the Barnack family albums of this period.

The manuscript of Conrad Barnack reminds me of other manuscripts that, unfortunately, are not readily available for research.
I already mentioned the significance of Oskar Barnack's work notes (Werkstattbuch).
But there must also be an unfinished auto-biographic manuscript by Dr Paul Wolff.
For our understanding of the Null-Serie users this manuscript would be very important as well.

In Leica literature (pre-and post-1945) there are several accounts on the first meeting between Oskar Barnack and Dr Paul Wolff.
Was this in 1921, 1922, 1923?

Also, I would like to get in touch with Hans-Günter Kisselbach on his fascinating book on Oskar Barnack's Handmuster camera.
I tried to ask people who must be familiar with him, but so far have received no reply.
Let us hope that he is still alive and kicking.

Roland

 

[Roland Zwiers]

William, Bill, Pedaes (Keith?), Lex,

Thank you for your clarifications and no hard feelings.

Yes, any source that can shed light on this early period is welcome!
I did not know of the existence of the manuscript by Conrad Barnack.
Who knows it has inside pictures of the period 1912-1914 that can shed more light on our discussion.

I fully agree with Bill that the memory of a 4-year old may not be perfect.
But if it includes the picture of 1912, with the 13x18 outfit in his hands, that would be very significant.
Could we infer with what camera this picture has been taken?
Equally important would be to have a look at the Barnack family albums of this period.

The manuscript of Conrad Barnack reminds me of other manuscripts that, unfortunately, are not readily available for research.
I already mentioned the significance of Oskar Barnack's work notes (Werkstattbuch).
But there must also be an unfinished auto-biographic manuscript by Dr Paul Wolff.
For our understanding of the Null-Serie users this manuscript would be very important as well.

In Leica literature (pre-and post-1945) there are several accounts on the first meeting between Oskar Barnack and Dr Paul Wolff.
Was this in 1921, 1922, 1923?

Also, I would like to get in touch with Hans-Günter Kisselbach on his fascinating book on Oskar Barnack's Handmuster camera.
I tried to ask people who must be familiar with him, but so far have received no reply.
Let us hope that he is still alive and kicking.

Roland

 

[Roland Zwiers]

William, Bill, Pedaes (Keith?), Lex,

Thank you for your clarifications and no hard feelings.

Yes, any source that can shed light on this early period is welcome!
I did not know of the existence of the manuscript by Conrad Barnack.
Who knows it has inside pictures of the period 1912-1914 that can shed more light on our discussion.

I fully agree with Bill that the memory of a 4-year old may not be perfect.
But if it includes the picture of 1912, with the 13x18 outfit in his hands, that would be very significant.
Could we infer with what camera this picture has been taken?
Equally important would be to have a look at the Barnack family albums of this period.

The manuscript of Conrad Barnack reminds me of other manuscripts that, unfortunately, are not readily available for research.
I already mentioned the significance of Oskar Barnack's work notes (Werkstattbuch).
But there must also be an unfinished auto-biographic manuscript by Dr Paul Wolff.
For our understanding of the Null-Serie users this manuscript would be very important as well.

In Leica literature (pre-and post-1945) there are several accounts on the first meeting between Oskar Barnack and Dr Paul Wolff.
Was this in 1921, 1922, 1923?

Also, I would like to get in touch with Hans-Günter Kisselbach on his fascinating book on Oskar Barnack's Handmuster camera.
I tried to ask people who must be familiar with him, but so far have received no reply.
Let us hope that he is still alive and kicking.

Roland

 

[Roland Zwiers]

William, Bill, Pedaes (Keith?), Lex,

Thank you for your clarifications and no hard feelings.

Yes, any source that can shed light on this early period is welcome!
I did not know of the existence of the manuscript by Conrad Barnack.
Who knows it has inside pictures of the period 1912-1914 that can shed more light on our discussion.

I fully agree with Bill that the memory of a 4-year old may not be perfect.
But if it includes the picture of 1912, with the 13x18 outfit in his hands, that would be very significant.
Could we infer with what camera this picture has been taken?
Equally important would be to have a look at the Barnack family albums of this period.

The manuscript of Conrad Barnack reminds me of other manuscripts that, unfortunately, are not readily available for research.
I already mentioned the significance of Oskar Barnack's work notes (Werkstattbuch).
But there must also be an unfinished auto-biographic manuscript by Dr Paul Wolff.
For our understanding of the Null-Serie users this manuscript would be very important as well.

In Leica literature (pre-and post-1945) there are several accounts on the first meeting between Oskar Barnack and Dr Paul Wolff.
Was this in 1921, 1922, 1923?

Also, I would like to get in touch with Hans-Günter Kisselbach on his fascinating book on Oskar Barnack's Handmuster camera.
I tried to ask people who must be familiar with him, but so far have received no reply.
Let us hope that he is still alive and kicking.

Roland

 

[Roland Zwiers]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Sorry for the repetitions!
It seemed the 'Submit Reply' button didn't work.

 

 

 

 

[Roland Zwiers]

Bill,

The relationship with M875 is still work in progress.

My intuition says that M875 is related to a work note in Oskar Barnack's Werkstattbuch 'Photometer', which translates as exposure meter.
Ulf Richter (2009) does not mention this work note.

Now there are two possibilities:

Either M875 started as this 'Photometer" but was altered and redesigned.
Or 'Photometer' was unrelated to M875, so was an earlier attempt at an exposure meter.
Possibly for use as an exposure meter for micro-cinematography.

In photo literature of the 1900s and 1910s one frequently finds exposure meters that make use of photographic paper.
These were often very small in size.

My intuition says that Oskar Barnack may have improved these miniature exposure meters so as to make them more accurate for scientific/ laboratory work.
E.g. for the field of micro-cinematography.
His work notes in the period 1911-1914 mention micro-cinematography several times.

Suppose Oskar Barnack started to use paper rolls of 3-4cm wide.
One could imagine a eureka-moment that made him use 35mm cine negative film instead.
The same film as was used in the movie camera that was combined with the Leitz microscope!

Roland

 

 

 

 

 

[Roland Zwiers]

100 years Eldia

In the past weeks I have been doing experimental work with the Eldia, especially in combination with the Leica IIIb.
In the Leica IIIb I am using the original brass Leica cassettes.

In this way I can see the difference in 'finger print' between Leica IIIb negatives that originate from different cassettes.
And the differences in 'finger print' between Leica IIIb negatives that come straight from the camera and those that are copied via the Eldia slide copying device.
These experiments are much in line with the work of Hans-Günter Kisselbach (2008).
He must have analysed the 'finger print' of Oskar Barnack's Handmuster camera in a similar way. 

Now I would first like to discuss my preliminary results with Hans-Günter Kisselbach himself.
To what extent do we have a similar approach?
But unfortunately, so far, all my attempts to reach him have failed.
In the meantime I will do some additional empirical research.

Using the Eldia in 2025 is complicated!

In 1925 it was designed for colour blind copy film that is no longer available.
With colour blind film one could comfortably oversee everything in yellow light.
Now I have to use an orthochromatic film instead.
Unfortunately, my orthochromatic film is not so insensitive to the colour red as I hoped.
So I have to use a dark red filter to oversee what I am doing.
And my eyes are not so sensitive to dark red light.

To be contined.

Roland

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Roland Zwiers]

On 8/8/2025 at 8:39 AM, Roland Zwiers said:

Bill,

The relationship with M875 is still work in progress.

My intuition says that M875 is related to a work note in Oskar Barnack's Werkstattbuch 'Photometer', which translates as exposure meter.
Ulf Richter (2009) does not mention this work note.

Now there are two possibilities:

Either M875 started as this 'Photometer" but was altered and redesigned.
Or 'Photometer' was unrelated to M875, so was an earlier attempt at an exposure meter.
Possibly for use as an exposure meter for micro-cinematography.

In photo literature of the 1900s and 1910s one frequently finds exposure meters that make use of photographic paper.
These were often very small in size.

My intuition says that Oskar Barnack may have improved these miniature exposure meters so as to make them more accurate for scientific/ laboratory work.
E.g. for the field of micro-cinematography.
His work notes in the period 1911-1914 mention micro-cinematography several times.

Suppose Oskar Barnack started to use paper rolls of 3-4cm wide.
One could imagine a eureka-moment that made him use 35mm cine negative film instead.
The same film as was used in the movie camera that was combined with the Leitz microscope!

Roland

 

 

 

 

 

Bill,

Why not co-author an article on M875?
In my manuscript of 2023, I already included a chapter on this subject.
I know you have done a lot of empirical work as well.

In this article we have to deal with the several observations in Ulf Richter (2009) that speak against the exposure meter function as the starting point for the Ur-Leica.
Now in our analysis, M875 was intended as an exposure meter.
And we feel that one thing may well have led to another.

Now after my manuscript of 2023 I found an entrance in Oskar Barnak’s work notes (Werkstattbuch) of 25 January 1912:

Photometer f. Dr Jentsch Eigenconstruktion

So, in English: Exposure meter for Dr. Jentsch, my own construction.

As indicated before, I do not equate this exposure meter with M875.
I am still chewing on a working hypothesis.
But I feel this exposure meter of 25 January 1912 may well be the starting point for M875.
This could be explained more fully in a separate article.

To be continued.

Roland

[willeica]

My view is that the device now tagged as M875 is a test device for exposure for 35mm film, presumably for Barnack's cine camera design . That it looks like a Leitz/Leica camera is no surprise as both came from the same design team and hands. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

The guillotine type shutter designates this not as a prototype, but rather as a laboratory or test device. There had been guillotine shutters around in the 1880s, but they were entirely different. This one was intended to replicate the approximate speed of the cine camera shutter at c 1/40th of a second 

By 1912/3 the guillotine shutters had long since been replaced by devices which gave much more precise timing and a variety of times as well. This piece describes such developments. 

http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/site/shuttern.html

We looked at Barnack's notebook afterwards and we found some mentions of Dr Jentsch

 

Hope these bits and pieces may be of some use.

William 

 

[Roland Zwiers]

William,

During our 2023 visit to the Leitz Archive we indeed could look at M875.
We also continued our discussion with Ulf Richter.
Ulf was unconvinced.

You show worknotes from the Werkstattbuch (Apertometer, Focometer), but not the crucial 'Photometer' that I quoted before.
'Photometer' is more relevant for the M875 discussion as it must concern an exposure meter.

Why would Oskar Barnack have made an exposure meter for Dr Jentsch?
What did Dr Jentsch need this exposure meter for?
What is the relation between this exposure meter for Dr Jentsch and M875?

I have my preliminary thoughts, but would first like to discuss these with Bill.
This would be my contribution to a joint article on M875.

Roland
 

 

 

 

 

 

[willeica]

1 hour ago, Roland Zwiers said:

William,

During our 2023 visit to the Leitz Archive we indeed could look at M875.
We also continued our discussion with Ulf Richter.
Ulf was unconvinced.

You show worknotes from the Werkstattbuch (Apertometer, Focometer), but not the crucial 'Photometer' that I quoted before.
'Photometer' is more relevant for the M875 discussion as it must concern an exposure meter.

Why would Oskar Barnack have made an exposure meter for Dr Jentsch?
What did Dr Jentsch need this exposure meter for?
What is the relation between this exposure meter for Dr Jentsch and M875?

I have my preliminary thoughts, but would first like to discuss these with Bill.
This would be my contribution to a joint article on M875.

Roland
 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks, Roland. I remain to be convinced that the device called M875 is 'Die Mutter der Ur-Leica'. I feel that is related to the cine camera designed by Barnack. I recall Jim Lager and Ulf Richter disagreeing about M875, but I cannot recall exactly which side each of them was on. Maybe it was about whether it was for testing the speed of film samples or the exposure needed for particular scenes? I'm not sure at this stage.

As for Dr Jentsch, do we know his exact job title at the relevant time? There may be a clue in there.

William 

[derleicaman]

Always interested  in this discussion. I can see both sides of the argument, and perhaps we should present it as such. Do we know who Dr. Jentsch was? Was there any mention of Mechau in these notes? I still see M875 as the best solution to making an emulsion speed test before committing an entire roll of cine film to make a film without knowing how this particular batch should be exposed.

[UliWer]

Here is a wikipedia-article about Felix Jentzsch - though only in German (I hope google translate will help, if not just ask):

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Jentzsch

[Roland Zwiers]

Bill, UliWer, William,

My appraoch would be to follow the work notes of Oskar Barnack in the Werkstattbuch.
I have managed to translate his handwriting in the period 1911-1914, so the text that ends in August 1914 with "Krieg"' = war.

In this way I have made a time line in which I categorized Oskar Barnack's several activities under various headings, such as:

• work on factory equipment in general
• work on the 35mm panorama camera
• work on microscopes/ micro-cinematography
• work for several Doctors and Professors/ the Phometer for Dr Jentsch
• work for Mechau's projector
• work on the 35mm cine camera
• work on the Ur-Leica

and so on.

On this basis I want to formulate a working hypothesis on the several roads that lead to the Ur-Leica.
The Photometer and M875 will play a prominent part.

Roland

 

 

 

 

[willeica]

3 hours ago, derleicaman said:

Always interested  in this discussion. I can see both sides of the argument, and perhaps we should present it as such. Do we know who Dr. Jentsch was? Was there any mention of Mechau in these notes? I still see M875 as the best solution to making an emulsion speed test before committing an entire roll of cine film to make a film without knowing how this particular batch should be exposed.

Based on the piece in German, Jentsch was an optical scientist who worked on microscopes and other optics for Leitz for a while. He then became an academic in Jena. There is no obvious connection between him and a photometer. 

William 

[UliWer]

19 hours ago, willeica said:

There is no obvious connection between him and a photometer.

Yes, it is not obvious. Though if you look at Max Berek‘s work before 1920, you don‘t find any obvious connections to photography either. Microscopy was the core of Leitz and all other products were more or less offsprings or sidekicks. So you cannot rule out that Jentzsch was occupied with some film projects, or perhaps only gave orders as head of the „scientific“ branch even if he was not very interested in the product himself. 

[willeica]

6 hours ago, UliWer said:

Yes, it is not obvious. Though if you look at Max Berek‘s work before 1920, you don‘t find any obvious connections to photography either. Microscopy was the core of Leitz and all other products were more or less offsprings or sidekicks. So you cannot rule out that Jentzsch was occupied with some film projects, or perhaps only gave orders as head of the „scientific“ branch even if he was not very interested in the product himself. 

I haven't ruled that out. What we were doing was trying to see if his job or job title gave any clue about this. Leitz was a very broad company back then and 'the Leica' was only a twinkle in Barnack's eye with birth happening many years in the future. The M875 device may have existed in 1912 and the term photometer might describe what I believe its function was. In the absence of paperwork, finding a connection with Jentsch may be difficult. 

William 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[alan mcfall]

On 9/2/2025 at 2:46 PM, Roland Zwiers said:

 

In this way I have made a time line in which I categorized Oskar Barnack's several activities under various headings, such as:

•  
• work on microscopes/ micro-cinematography
•  

Perhaps Barnak was aware or even involved with this Leitz apparatus shown in a 1923 Brochure.

 

 

 

 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!