100 years Null-Serie

[pedaes]

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4 hours ago, Roland Zwiers said:

I still cannot read.

Is your research now at a level of detail you would benefit from the support of an expert in old German texts. I would guess this issue must crop up in other fields, and presumably there is a University / Professor who could help.

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[Roland Zwiers]

13 minutes ago, pedaes said:

Is your research now at a level of detail you would benefit from the support of an expert in old German texts. I would guess this issue must crop up in other fields, and presumably there is a University / Professor who could help.

Well, I am always looking for additional expertise.
So a specialist in old German handwriting styles would be a good idea.
I already tried an artificial-intelligence programme in this field.
But for Oskar Barnack's handwriting the programme was no use whatsoever. 
In the meantime it would already help me if I could study more pages with Oskar Barnack's handwriting.
Normal intelligence may be good enough 🙂

Roland

[willeica]

15 hours ago, derleicaman said:

I obtained various copies of Barnack’s birth certificate and marriage license from Oscar Fricke. I used these and show many interesting other artifacts in an article for Viewfinder about the spelling of Barnack’s first name. Oskar with a “C” or a “K”?
I also discuss theories about why 105 was engraved Oscar on the finder.

I will post links to this article and the PIX article tomorrow.

Bill, your piece was in Viewfinder Vol 55-2. I don't think it included this which I found in the papers which came with No 105 and which I examined on the day before the auction. it was a photo copy and not an original. This is said to be a copy of Barnack's wedding certificate from 1903. I suspect that it was one of a number of documents which passed between Conrad Barnack and Jim Forsyth.

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After the auction I had a lengthy discussion with Ottmar Michaely who had worked on No 105. We discussed the camera and the various alterations which had been made to it such as the wind mechanism. He confirmed the existence of recent photographs which he had taken with No 105 after he had completed the repairs, but could not show me any. He did, however, have an image of the original handwritten birth certificate for Barnack on his phone. I was no wiser after looking at that because it just looked like a spidery scrawl to me. I believe there is an image of that document in your article.

William 

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by willeica

[Roland Zwiers]

William,

This wedding certificate is fascinating!
It shows that both the parents of Oskar Barnack and of his wife Louise Leopold belonged to the labour class (Arbeiter).
This implies that the German schoolsystem enabled Oskar Barnack to climb the social ladder in one generation only.
Of course, it also helped that Ernst Leitz I and II were judging their empoyees on merit  and not on social background.

Roland

 

  

[beoon]

1 hour ago, derleicaman said:

Thanks for the link. Glad you enjoyed it!

Bill, yes I had a good read also and found it very interesting.

I happened to be looking for something on my IPhone and found another photo of the Leica delivery records showing number 1081 to Herr Wolff Wetzlar.

if you also look at the row showing 1085 it is detailed as being delivered on the 11th March 26 to Leisteschneider Düsseldorf who sent the pencil to Barnack in 1933.

 

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Edited July 9, 2023 by beoon

[willeica]

45 minutes ago, beoon said:

Bill, yes I had a good read also and found it very interesting.

I happened to be looking for something on my IPhone and found another photo of the Leica delivery records showing number 1081 to Herr Wolff Wetzlar.

if you also look at the row showing 1085 it is detailed as being delivered on the 11th March 26 to Leisteschneider Düsseldorf who sent the pencil to Barnack in 1933.

 

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My earlier post was an extract from this. One question arises in my mind. How many of these were not dealers, but just 'ordinary citizens'? The Leitz/Leica dealer network was still in its formative stages and items sent directly to customers seem to be more common in the earlier records. I have looked at delivery books from the early 1930s and almost all of the entries are for dealers. Another factor for Roland to consider.

William 

William 

[derleicaman]

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6 hours ago, willeica said:

Bill, your piece was in Viewfinder Vol 55-2. I don't think it included this which I found in the papers which came with No 105 and which I examined on the day before the auction. it was a photo copy and not an original. This is said to be a copy of Barnack's wedding certificate from 1903. I suspect that it was one of a number of documents which passed between Conrad Barnack and Jim Forsyth.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

After the auction I had a lengthy discussion with Ottmar Michaely who had worked on No 105. We discussed the camera and the various alterations which had been made to it such as the wind mechanism. He confirmed the existence of recent photographs which he had taken with No 105 after he had completed the repairs, but could not show me any. He did, however, have an image of the original handwritten birth certificate for Barnack on his phone. I was no wiser after looking at that because it just looked like a spidery scrawl to me. I believe there is an image of that document in your article.

William 

 

Thanks for the article reference, you beat me to it!

I did examine the document you show here. Bottom line, I had to edit the number of documents I could show, and this one was a later copy of the original marriage certificate. The stamp in the upper left was a little problematic as well. I also had some copies of documents from the post-war period during the time of the DDR. Barnack was born in what later became part of East Germany. Jena, the home of Zeiss, also was in the East Zone. Wetzlar, being located in the American Zone in the West, was very fortunate. There were even rumors that Wetzlar was spared from bombing during the war, as the Western Allies wanted the firm of E. Leitz intact for their own purposes after the war. 
There was no truth to this rumor. Wetzlar did in fact get bombed and some areas suffered serious damage. The Dom in Altstadt Wetzlar was severely damaged. The Wetzlar shooting club was completely destroyed, and it was located literally within footsteps of the factory and Admin building. The Admin building on the corner of Ernst Leitz Strasse, the original home of Ernst Leitz was also damaged. The Buderus Steel Works, just West and North of the Leitz factory were bombed, as were the rail yards and train station of Wetzlar. This prompted Leitz to build an underground factory in an abandoned iron mine, directly across the factory from the Hausertor Werke.

 

[Roland Zwiers]

10 hours ago, beoon said:

Bill, yes I had a good read also and found it very interesting.

I happened to be looking for something on my IPhone and found another photo of the Leica delivery records showing number 1081 to Herr Wolff Wetzlar.

if you also look at the row showing 1085 it is detailed as being delivered on the 11th March 26 to Leisteschneider Düsseldorf who sent the pencil to Barnack in 1933.

 

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This page from the delivery book 'Kamera'  is interesting for many reasons.
I already discussed nr. 1081, which according to the register was delivered to a Mr. Wolff, resident in Wetzlar.
Without additional proof it is very unlikely that this was Dr. Wolff, who was a resident of Frankfurt a/M.

But look at Nr. 1091 that was delivered on 21 December [1925 or 1926?] to Prof Dr Klute, Giessen. 
This same Prof Klute, Giessen appears on page 115 of Oskar Barnack's work notes, where he is linked to Nr. 114.
Nr. 114 is confirmed in the delivery book 'Kamera':  Klute Professor Giessen. 

So what happened to Nr. 114 when Prof. Klute obtained Nr. 1091? 
How to explain the big time difference in delivery between the numbers 1077-1090 and 1091?

What does this time difference tell us about the registration procedure?
[The numbers 1090 and 1091 must have been registred shortly one after another.]

What does this time difference tell us about the assembly line?
Was 1091 assembled and delivered relatively early [21 December 1925] or relatively late [21 December 1926]?

Roland

 

 

[beoon]

Hello Roland,

Yes, these pages from 1926 are interesting as they might indicate the direction of travel as more of the earlier cameras were delivered. Distributing cameras to develop the dealers knowledge and Leitz senior management 

On the other kamera page showing Wolff Wetzlar if you look a few rows down. Number 1778 (delivered 11/8/26) is detailed as Wiedling and some other text (…Hause?). Max Wiedling went on to become managing director of E. Leitz London after 1928, I do not know what his position was with Leitz prior to his appointment at London . Was this an “in house” camera to an existing Leitz manager?

 

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Edited July 10, 2023 by beoon

[Roland Zwiers]

I would read: Wiedling [?]/ Hause
I do not yet understand [?]/ 
And so I do not know whether [?]/ Hause stands for a place name of for an expression, like 'at home'.

• Note that in the delivery register 'Kamera' placenames like Oberhausen and Düsseldorf are frequently abbriviated to: O'hausen, D'dorf.
• Note that in German texts the [ / ] is often used for abbreviations as well:

like in:  Dr Wolff, Frankfurt a/M
which stands for:  Dr Wolff, Frankfurt am Main
[so as to differentiate with Frankfurt am Oder]

 

Roland

 

 

 

 

[beoon]

58 minutes ago, beoon said:

Max Wiedling went on to become managing director of E. Leitz London after 1928

 

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[romanus53]

vor 47 Minuten schrieb Roland Zwiers:

I would read: Wiedling [?]/ Hause
I do not yet understand [?]/ 
And so I do not know whether [?]/ Hause stands for a place name of for an expression, like 'at home'.

• Note that in the delivery register 'Kamera' placenames like Oberhausen and Düsseldorf are frequently abbriviated to: O'hausen, D'dorf.
• Note that in German texts the [ / ] is often used for abbreviations as well:

like in:  Dr Wolff, Frankfurt a/M
which stands for:  Dr Wolff, Frankfurt am Main
[so as to differentiate with Frankfurt am Oder]

 

Roland

 

 

 

 

Wiedling  im/Hause

[willeica]

9 hours ago, derleicaman said:

Thanks for the article reference, you beat me to it!

I did examine the document you show here. Bottom line, I had to edit the number of documents I could show, and this one was a later copy of the original marriage certificate. The stamp in the upper left was a little problematic as well. I also had some copies of documents from the post-war period during the time of the DDR. Barnack was born in what later became part of East Germany. Jena, the home of Zeiss, also was in the East Zone. Wetzlar, being located in the American Zone in the West, was very fortunate. There were even rumors that Wetzlar was spared from bombing during the war, as the Western Allies wanted the firm of E. Leitz intact for their own purposes after the war. 
There was no truth to this rumor. Wetzlar did in fact get bombed and some areas suffered serious damage. The Dom in Altstadt Wetzlar was severely damaged. The Wetzlar shooting club was completely destroyed, and it was located literally within footsteps of the factory and Admin building. The Admin building on the corner of Ernst Leitz Strasse, the original home of Ernst Leitz was also damaged. The Buderus Steel Works, just West and North of the Leitz factory were bombed, as were the rail yards and train station of Wetzlar. This prompted Leitz to build an underground factory in an abandoned iron mine, directly across the factory from the Hausertor Werke.

 

I was told recently that the tunnel between the factory and the Leitz home was also damaged in wartime bombing.  
 

4 hours ago, beoon said:

Hello Roland,

Yes, these pages from 1926 are interesting as they might indicate the direction of travel as more of the earlier cameras were delivered. Distributing cameras to develop the dealers knowledge and Leitz senior management 

On the other kamera page showing Wolff Wetzlar if you look a few rows down. Number 1778 (delivered 11/8/26) is detailed as Wiedling and some other text (…Hause?). Max Wiedling went on to become managing director of E. Leitz London after 1928, I do not know what his position was with Leitz prior to his appointment at London . Was this an “in house” camera to an existing Leitz manager?

 

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I have the next camera on the list, 1783. I believe I have posted details about it before. It was sent to Bingen which is not far from Wetzlar. This is the camera which was returned to Barnack in 1927. I’m not sure where this 1927 return detail was recorded, but I can check on this when I am there next October. The archive used to give me details of subsequent returns to Wetzlar, but now they only give the original delivery details. 
 

William

[beoon]

On 7/10/2023 at 6:41 AM, Roland Zwiers said:

But look at Nr. 1091 that was delivered on 21 December [1925 or 1926?] to Prof Dr Klute, Giessen. 
This same Prof Klute, Giessen appears on page 115 of Oskar Barnack's work notes, where he is linked to Nr. 114.
Nr. 114 is confirmed in the delivery book 'Kamera':  Klute Professor Giessen. 

So what happened to Nr. 114 when Prof. Klute obtained Nr. 1091? 
How to explain the big time difference in delivery between the numbers 1077-1090 and 1091

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Roland,

Here is a testimonial from Professor Klute and he confirms having a null series Leica in 1923/24

regards

Alan

Edited July 12, 2023 by beoon

[Roland Zwiers]

Hello Alan,

This is fascinating again!
There is an enormous lack of (known) feed-back from Null-Serie recipients.
So this is a very valuable source! 

Interestingly, Prof Klute confirms the lack-of-quality of the German cine negative films of 1923/1924. 
Dr Paul Wolff made a similar complaint ['it was a cross"], that I place in 1923/1924 as well.
Prof Klute states that at the time of writing ['jetzt' = now] films have a much finer grain, so that the said shortcoming ['Mangel'] does not apply anymore.

I am curious after the next page.
Prof Klute is explaining why he needs to take pictures in the morning and/or evening hours.
One would expect that on the next page he will say something on the increased sensitivity of Leica-films.
That is the increase in film speed since 1923/1924.

In 1931 Curt Emmermann also keeps his readers informed about increases in film speed.
On one occasion he remarks that with the latest increase in film speed 'the photographic day has again become a few hours longer'.

Roland

 

 

 

[beoon]

Roland,

my apologies, I forgot to upload the next page from Prof. Klute article.

Also in this List 2275 From May 1927 there are other early, but small testimonials from early users in 1925. Some are also Professors.

Professor Dr W Gurtler 21/3/25

Professor Dr H Durck 31/1/25

Professor Dr H Schneiderhohn 16/3/25

Professor Dr H Erhard 30/8/25

Professor Dr W Scheffer 7/3/25

Professor F Schmidt 10/5/25

It would be good if we could trace these users to specific cameras 

Alan

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[Roland Zwiers]

Alan,

This is new information for me!
It opens a new window for research!!

All the comments that apply to the period before the March 1925 Leipzig spring fair may be considered as comments by users of a test series Leica. 
In this hypothesis Ernst Leitz aimed at market introduction at the Leipzig spring fair (1-11 March 1925).
So the cameras that were engraved, assembled and delivered up to March 1925 were still test cameras.
One of these was delivered to Curt Emmermann in early February 1925.

Editor Willy Frerk received his Leica Nr. 211 on 4 March, probably for the purpose of his review of 31 March 1925.
In that sense even this early March 1925 Leica can still be regarded as a test camera!

When people like Professor Dr W Scheffer (7/3/25) and Professor Dr W Gurtler (21/3/25) have such early testimonials as well, 
then one must assume that they received their Leicas at about the same time as Curt Emmermann,  Willy Frerk, Dr Paul Wolff and Prof Muesmann.

But why have I not been able to find them in the delivery book 'Kamera'?

One plausible explanation is that so far I have only seen a few pages of this delivery book.
On our visit to the leitz archive I hope to see more.

Another possible explanation is that they received the cameras via Ernst Leitz himself;
see my earlier remarks about Auftragnummer 416 (19 January 1925) in the delivery book ‘Kamera’.
These cameras are matched to ‘Leitz Berlin’.

Roland

 

[willeica]

2 hours ago, Roland Zwiers said:

When people like Professor Dr W Scheffer (7/3/25) and Professor Dr W Gurtler (21/3/25) have such early testimonials as well, 
then one must assume that they received their Leicas at about the same time as Curt Emmermann,  Willy Frerk, Dr Paul Wolff and Prof Muesmann.

But why have I not been able to find them in the delivery book 'Kamera'?

One plausible explanation is that so far I have only seen a few pages of this delivery book.
On our visit to the leitz archive I hope to see more.

I said earlier that you need to get copies of all of the relevant delivery book entries. I have also mentioned that the delivery book was originally a mix of personal deliveries and deliveries through dealers as the dealer network was being developed. Ernst Leitz Berlin was, however, well developed since long before the Leica appeared and I have seen plates on Klapp and other earlier cameras (some were Ernemanns etc with Leitz lenses) which carry Leitz Berlin plates from c 1905-1910. There may be other paper work that you need to see, if it is still around. I know we have discussed it before, but have you seen the full paperwork on Auftragnummer 416? If not, we should put a note in to Tim Pullmann about this before we turn up in October.

William 

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[Roland Zwiers]

William,

I already asked about Auftragsnummer 416 before your June visit to the Leitz archive.
It was my intention to join you.
It is indeed possible that this order number comprises more than three cameras!

In my collection is a pricelist that must be from 1912-1913.
It has the title:

Ernst Leitz
: Zweiggeschäft Berlin :
Inhaber: Franz Bergmann

This shows that Franz Bergmann was already manager of the Berlin subsidiary in the time that Oskar Barnack was working on his exposure tester/ Ur-Leica! 
I acquired the pricelist so as to better understand the German terminology in Oskar Barnack's 1912-1914  work notes.

It is fascinating that so many replies bring new information!
I hope that the Leitz archive will allow us to take pictures of the delivery book 'Kamera', at least so fas as the numbers 126-2066 are concerned.
These numbers are mentioned in the Leitz engravings register for 1924-1926 as well.
And so this information will be helpful for optimising the stock/flow chart.

 

Roland 

 

[willeica]

3 hours ago, Roland Zwiers said:

William,

I already asked about Auftragsnummer 416 before your June visit to the Leitz archive.
It was my intention to join you.
It is indeed possible that this order number comprises more than three cameras!

In my collection is a pricelist that must be from 1912-1913.
It has the title:

Ernst Leitz
: Zweiggeschäft Berlin :
Inhaber: Franz Bergmann

This shows that Franz Bergmann was already manager of the Berlin subsidiary in the time that Oskar Barnack was working on his exposure tester/ Ur-Leica! 
I acquired the pricelist so as to better understand the German terminology in Oskar Barnack's 1912-1914  work notes.

It is fascinating that so many replies bring new information!
I hope that the Leitz archive will allow us to take pictures of the delivery book 'Kamera', at least so fas as the numbers 126-2066 are concerned.
These numbers are mentioned in the Leitz engravings register for 1924-1926 as well.
And so this information will be helpful for optimising the stock/flow chart.

 

Roland 

 

 We will have 165 attendees (at least, possibly more) and will have to see how we will handle the large number of groups going in for short visits. I will signal what you want to see and see if a small group can go in with Jim Lager while other events are taking place away from the group tours.

I will keep you posted.

William