Maybe the SL2-S Will Become a Classic

[lencap]

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Greetings!

The more I read about the M11 and Q3 the similarities in some comments are interesting.  Some, by no means all, believe that the higher resolution sensors/lenses, while technically excellent, are "too clinical" and "digital" in appearance.  

I noticed something similar when looking at older images from my Leica Q, the SL 601 and now the SL2-S.  All of those images are from 24MP sensors.  The SL images come from Leica lenses, including the 24-90 zoom and the currently bundled 50mm Summicron F/2.0 ASPH, and some from the Sigma 50mm F/1.4 ART lens.  When I compare the images of the new Summicron to the older 601/Sigma combo I understand the "clinical" comment perspective, although I don't find it objectionable.  

I remember similar comments about Zeiss lenses, especially M mount lenses, over the years.  Zeiss was "clinical", Leica "artsy".  The reissue of a classic Leica "old school" lens seems to suggest Leica is aware of the desire for having resolution/character choices in their lens lineup.

My thought is that as Leica moves further and further into higher resolution sensors it may be that the feeling of "clinical" look becomes more common, and people revert to lower resolution sensors with better light gathering properties and less pixels to compensate.  I noticed, for example, that despite the impending arrival of an updated SL3 system, used prices of the original SL 601 are holding steady, and maybe even rising a bit.  The M 10-P is also holding value exceptionally well, another 24 MP sensor.

I believe the SL2-S will be the last of current 24MP sensors, and it may be a good time to get one before they disappear, especially so with the current Leica promotions.  Maybe the M10 24MP sensor will be around a while longer, but that's the last M body with the 24MP sensor.  

I don't want to sound like "the old guy" living in nostalgia, but I do think that the dramatic rise in film photography may be related for a desire to have a more tactile experience, as well as more emphasis on the "feel" of an image instead of the technical excellence of the image being paramount.   Regardless of what happens I'm very glad that I was able to get the Leica SL2-S 50mm Summicron ASPH lens combo at a very reduced price, along with the added voucher discount.

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[drjonb]

1 hour ago, lencap said:

Greetings!

The more I read about the M11 and Q3 the similarities in some comments are interesting.  Some, by no means all, believe that the higher resolution sensors/lenses, while technically excellent, are "too clinical" and "digital" in appearance.  

I noticed something similar when looking at older images from my Leica Q, the SL 601 and now the SL2-S.  All of those images are from 24MP sensors.  The SL images come from Leica lenses, including the 24-90 zoom and the currently bundled 50mm Summicron F/2.0 ASPH, and some from the Sigma 50mm F/1.4 ART lens.  When I compare the images of the new Summicron to the older 601/Sigma combo I understand the "clinical" comment perspective, although I don't find it objectionable.  

I remember similar comments about Zeiss lenses, especially M mount lenses, over the years.  Zeiss was "clinical", Leica "artsy".  The reissue of a classic Leica "old school" lens seems to suggest Leica is aware of the desire for having resolution/character choices in their lens lineup.

My thought is that as Leica moves further and further into higher resolution sensors it may be that the feeling of "clinical" look becomes more common, and people revert to lower resolution sensors with better light gathering properties and less pixels to compensate.  I noticed, for example, that despite the impending arrival of an updated SL3 system, used prices of the original SL 601 are holding steady, and maybe even rising a bit.  The M 10-P is also holding value exceptionally well, another 24 MP sensor.

I believe the SL2-S will be the last of current 24MP sensors, and it may be a good time to get one before they disappear, especially so with the current Leica promotions.  Maybe the M10 24MP sensor will be around a while longer, but that's the last M body with the 24MP sensor.  

I don't want to sound like "the old guy" living in nostalgia, but I do think that the dramatic rise in film photography may be related for a desire to have a more tactile experience, as well as more emphasis on the "feel" of an image instead of the technical excellence of the image being paramount.   Regardless of what happens I'm very glad that I was able to get the Leica SL2-S 50mm Summicron ASPH lens combo at a very reduced price, along with the added voucher discount.

You pose a very interesting question, and the answer may take a while to emerge. Perhaps a clue to the answer can be found looking at the history of digital music; vinyl is now outselling CDs, and the sales of higher resolution digital music (DSD, 24-96) never really threatened 16-44 format CD sales.  I hear that HMV are considering reopening their former flagship Oxford St record store to sell vinyl.  Maybe nostalgia does trump resolving power.  The data capacity of analogue media like vinyl, tape, and film, could never compete with modern digital storage and the ability of modern chips to process vast amounts of data - Moore’s Law still reigns.  But the consumer appears to favour tactile over resolution.  We are analogue beings afterall.

One central London camera store I know, sells mostly film at the weekend, and a lot of it is sold to photography students who evidently prefer film to digital for their studies.  

Cameras and lenses are a consumer business just like any other electronics business, and in the final analysis, it is consumers who eventually drive the trends…and most consumers are not motivated by pixel density per square mm in a 35mm sensor, or the ability of a lens to resolve the the width of a gnat’s hair follicle.  Maybe in the not too distant future, Leica will reissue the M7 and Kodak will reopen their film factory in North London!  Spoiler alert…I am an Old Guy.

[Chaemono]

Vinyl outselling CDs would be in the digital M world M with SL-2 sensor outselling M11. Maybe Leica will make it. According to my dealer there is a large interest for used M10-Ps.

[SoCalLeicanator]

I agree with this sentiment.  My "journey" was CL -> Q2 -> SL2-S and even though you can pixel peep and crop the hell out of Q2 files, they just didn't have the same warmth as the output from my SL2-S. It's an amazing sensor and I hope the upgrade is a ways off to avoid temptation. . . 

[robb]

Sl2-s is my favorite camera for travel and knowing I can shoot anything in any light.

but I am still using that camera with my SL apo lenses - which I think are my favorite ever because of their sharpness across the frame.  

I have zero desire to go back to film or older sensors or less sharp lenses or vinyl for that matter.

I look forward to the SL3 and future higher mp sensors.

but the sl2-s is a great camera that I’ll be happy to use when I don’t need gigantic prints.

Robb

[LBJ2]

4 hours ago, lencap said:

Greetings!

The more I read about the M11 and Q3 the similarities in some comments are interesting.  Some, by no means all, believe that the higher resolution sensors/lenses, while technically excellent, are "too clinical" and "digital" in appearance.  

I noticed something similar when looking at older images from my Leica Q, the SL 601 and now the SL2-S.  All of those images are from 24MP sensors.  The SL images come from Leica lenses, including the 24-90 zoom and the currently bundled 50mm Summicron F/2.0 ASPH, and some from the Sigma 50mm F/1.4 ART lens.  When I compare the images of the new Summicron to the older 601/Sigma combo I understand the "clinical" comment perspective, although I don't find it objectionable.  

I remember similar comments about Zeiss lenses, especially M mount lenses, over the years.  Zeiss was "clinical", Leica "artsy".  The reissue of a classic Leica "old school" lens seems to suggest Leica is aware of the desire for having resolution/character choices in their lens lineup.

My thought is that as Leica moves further and further into higher resolution sensors it may be that the feeling of "clinical" look becomes more common, and people revert to lower resolution sensors with better light gathering properties and less pixels to compensate.  I noticed, for example, that despite the impending arrival of an updated SL3 system, used prices of the original SL 601 are holding steady, and maybe even rising a bit.  The M 10-P is also holding value exceptionally well, another 24 MP sensor.

I believe the SL2-S will be the last of current 24MP sensors, and it may be a good time to get one before they disappear, especially so with the current Leica promotions.  Maybe the M10 24MP sensor will be around a while longer, but that's the last M body with the 24MP sensor.  

I don't want to sound like "the old guy" living in nostalgia, but I do think that the dramatic rise in film photography may be related for a desire to have a more tactile experience, as well as more emphasis on the "feel" of an image instead of the technical excellence of the image being paramount.   Regardless of what happens I'm very glad that I was able to get the Leica SL2-S 50mm Summicron ASPH lens combo at a very reduced price, along with the added voucher discount.

Congrats on the new kit! Glad you are enjoying. I think Leica made a smart move with those new smaller/lighter Leica SL 35 and 50 asph lenses for those looking for a more compact SL kit.  

FWIW, I consider the lens as the primary contributor to "the look" classic/character, clinical or otherwise, not the digital sensor or the sensor resolution. 

Edited June 1, 2023 by LBJ2

[OleBe]

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100% agree. Last week I have decided to go one step further. Sold all of my SL Summicrons and bought a Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f1.0 for my SL2-S. Cannot be more happy than I am right now. That couple is outstanding.

[hansvons]

11 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

FWIW, I consider the lens as the primary contributor to "the look" classic/character, clinical or otherwise, not the digital sensor or the sensor resolution. 

Agree with the sentiment that lenses are the main contributor to the look of an image. However, the emulsion or sensor contributes to the feel of a picture. Cinematographers and directors tend to choose a 4K resolving Alexa or Kodak Vision stock over any other cine camera, even those with 8K sensors because the sensor’s texture and colour response is by far more important than resolution for these people. 
 

I find the SL2-S sensor in terms of colour and resolution the sweet spot for my work (mainly reportage, editorial, people). Others do landscapes and want that 100MP image for super large prints that allow for deep pixel peeping, which I find very much niche. If I print, I mostly do 60x40. For that, 24MP/6K are more than sufficient, which also counts for Delta 100, TriX, 5207 etc… 

That race to MP isn’t leading to anything I need. YMMV, of course.

[LBJ2]

5 hours ago, hansvons said:

Agree with the sentiment that lenses are the main contributor to the look of an image. However, the emulsion or sensor contributes to the feel of a picture. Cinematographers and directors tend to choose a 4K resolving Alexa or Kodak Vision stock over any other cine camera, even those with 8K sensors because the sensor’s texture and colour response is by far more important than resolution for these people. 
 

I find the SL2-S sensor in terms of colour and resolution the sweet spot for my work (mainly reportage, editorial, people). Others do landscapes and want that 100MP image for super large prints that allow for deep pixel peeping, which I find very much niche. If I print, I mostly do 60x40. For that, 24MP/6K are more than sufficient, which also counts for Delta 100, TriX, 5207 etc… 

That race to MP isn’t leading to anything I need. YMMV, of course.

To be clear, I think the SL2-S is a lovely camera. Nice colors and special low-light capabilities just to name a few attributes. I certainly understand it's following. Likewise, I don't disagree that 24MP can be a sweet spot for many photographic purposes. I can't speak to cinematography. 

I also "Agree with the sentiment that lenses are the main contributor to the look of an image"

Edited June 2, 2023 by LBJ2

[Stuart Richardson]

I agree somewhat with the sentiment, but since I like large prints I push the resolution a bit higher, and the lenses a bit sharper. 40-50mp will get you very far…the S006 and SL2 are my favorite Leica digitals, along with the lower res M9. I am happy for resolution to increase, but it is a harder sell to me to be over 50mp or so. It will be interesting to see if the market slows or stops around 60-100mp for 35mm…increasingly the resolution is not translateable to real world applications. 

[LBJ2]

7 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I agree somewhat with the sentiment, but since I like large prints I push the resolution a bit higher, and the lenses a bit sharper. 40-50mp will get you very far…the S006 and SL2 are my favorite Leica digitals, along with the lower res M9. I am happy for resolution to increase, but it is a harder sell to me to be over 50mp or so. It will be interesting to see if the market slows or stops around 60-100mp for 35mm…increasingly the resolution is not translateable to real world applications. 

I am currently happier to work with the 40-60MP range for my photography. I notice Sony sensor tech seems to have rested at 61 MPs full frame for now--my guess is current FF sensor tech at 60-ish MP might be at the "consumer" technical trade -off/ limitation(s) for a number of factors. But we shall see what new FF sensor tech Sony is working on and may introduce for FF cameras of many different brands in the future.

[hansvons]

21 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

40-50mp will get you very far…

I can see that for sure. Imagine a sensor with outstanding colour fidelity in deep shadows, pleasing texture and the sensitivity of today's 24MP sensors in the 50MP range. I can see great use for such a sensor from a stills photography side. The M11 sensor may already be close to that. However, Leica's current 60MP sensor read-out times must be faster for proper video. 

[BernardC]

12 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

I notice Sony sensor tech seems to have rested at 61 MPs full frame for now--my guess is current FF sensor tech at 60-ish MP might be at the "consumer" technical trade -off/ limitation(s) for a number of factors. But we shall see what new FF sensor tech Sony is working on and may introduce for FF cameras of many different brands in the future.

The limitation is on the demand side. It's very hard to fully use a 60MP 35mm sensor, you need the very best lenses and technique.

It's a lot easier to do with a larger sensor, which is most of the "high res/landscape" market segment has moved to Fuji and Hasselblad. We saw the same phenomenon in the film days: almost all landscape shooters used medium and large format film, rather than fussing with TechPan and 35mm.

Right now, the main focus of sensor development seems to be on faster readout speed (which minimizes "rolling shutter" in video and allows shutterless cameras), and on low-light sensitivity. We'll eventually get past the 60MP generation of sensors, but I don't think it's a priority. (Note: as I write this, Leica hasn't yet announced their 100MP SL3!).

 

[LBJ2]

22 minutes ago, BernardC said:

The limitation is on the demand side. It's very hard to fully use a 60MP 35mm sensor, you need the very best lenses and technique.

It's a lot easier to do with a larger sensor, which is most of the "high res/landscape" market segment has moved to Fuji and Hasselblad. We saw the same phenomenon in the film days: almost all landscape shooters used medium and large format film, rather than fussing with TechPan and 35mm.

Right now, the main focus of sensor development seems to be on faster readout speed (which minimizes "rolling shutter" in video and allows shutterless cameras), and on low-light sensitivity. We'll eventually get past the 60MP generation of sensors, but I don't think it's a priority. (Note: as I write this, Leica hasn't yet announced their 100MP SL3!).

 

Good technique is good technique. With hands on experience for some years now, I don't agree with the blanket statement  "it's very hard to fully use a 60MP 35mm sensor, you need the very best lenses and technique." Particularly with today's camera and lens technologies. Some adjustments, for sure depending upon the scenario, lens FL etc. etc.--right tool [technique] for the job. 

[Sohail]

A lot depends on what you shoot. 25MP is fine for street, travel, and portraiture. Landscapes is a separate matter.

[Jon Warwick]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

The limitation is on the demand side. It's very hard to fully use a 60MP 35mm sensor, you need the very best lenses and technique.

It's a lot easier to do with a larger sensor, which is most of the "high res/landscape" market segment has moved to Fuji and Hasselblad. We saw the same phenomenon in the film days: almost all landscape shooters used medium and large format film, rather than fussing with TechPan and 35mm.

 

I’ve tried 35mm camera and super fine grain & high resolution film (Adox 20) to see how far i could push it in terms of image quality and my conclusion was it’s better just to go up a size in sensor / film.

Sure, that 35mm film was grain free and high resolving, but lacked a lot of the smoother tonal transitions that I got from 120 or 5x4.

I see something similar with 35mm full frame sensors vs medium format digital, the bigger sensor is more likely to produce smoother and more natural tones (and of course lots of resolution too).

The only exception to this view, for me, is the Monochrom sensors, which seem really exemplary in producing smoother tones too. Whilst just 35mm full frame, the Monochrom output in terms of tonality seems much more akin to medium format digital to my eyes.

[dynaerik]

Am 2.6.2023 um 16:23 schrieb Sohail:

A lot depends on what you shoot. 25MP is fine for street, travel, and portraiture. Landscapes is a separate matter.

That’s why the Leica SL2-S is so good. 24MP for street, travel and portraits. And the multishot mode with 96MP for the landscapes

[Sohail]

A general question: how much better is the SL2-S than the SL2 in terms of lowlight performance? 

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[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, Sohail said:

A general question: how much better is the SL2-S than the SL2 in terms of lowlight performance? 

I owned the SL2 for four months before trading it in for the SL2-S, and never shot them side by side, so treat my comment accordingly. I would say 1-2 stops.

That 'performance' is based on noise patterns and (to a lesser extent) noise amount, and colour quality, especially skin tones and shadows.

Edited June 4, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[Ko.Fe.]

To me SL1 is classic.

 

But I decided not to. At 931 g it is not a camera I could do street and travel. To be honest, don't want to haul it even for one hour near home...

Looks like Leica has long way to go before figuring out how to make IBIS, FF camera and lenses without humongous size, weight  involved. 

On my not to distant days of travel and some free time after it I used film M for several years.

Tiny, awesome and amazing ergonomics, tactile. Including Summarit-M 35 2.5. And faster to operate than any digital camera, once you know what you are doing (takes time to practice).

From my travel and street photography initiated around 2007 I could say AF is just irrelevant as for landscapes.    

 

It is shame Leica quit from APS-C. I got X2 one week ago. This is the camera which makes sense for travel and with OVF and MF it does street fine