Flip it!

[Bitbooll]

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On 5/10/2023 at 4:25 PM, hmzimelka said:

The readout of the electric shutter is so slow that it causes a rolling shutter affect... straight lines can end up skew if one happens to move the camera during the exposure. Objects that move are distorted. The only thing practical about it is that it's silent and allows effective exposure for shutter speeds higher than 1/4000sec.

I don't think it's a great solution. The stapler sound and the multiple shutter curtain action to take one image is not something a lot of people are a fan of. I think a sensor like in the Z9 that can completely circumvent a mechanical shutter, is something that can be labeled a good solution. To have the shutter open for metering and live view, then to take an image the curtain closes, another opens followed quickly by the second curtain, both these move back to be reset and the front curtain opens again for live view and metering. Seems excessive for one picture. Just my opinion, but I think I'm not the only one.

I have the M11 and I'm getting on with it for over a year and 17K+ images, but it's often I just want my M10M back. The only thing that keeps that from happening is access to M cameras where I am and the fact that the M11 has amazing battery life. 

 

Yes, I also find rolling shutter artefacts a huge M11M's issue. Really bad engineering from Leica, considering M11M is a high-end (sort of) camera and should be on par with Canon EOS 5D Mark IV, Sony A7RIV, Nikon Z9 etc, in this respect. Surprisingly (!), Q2M had a very decent implementation of its electronic shutter, and I was expecting M11M to be at least at the same level of its implementation. Alas!

When you say "I just want my M10M back" you refer to a camera that didn't have an electronic shutter. So, if you set your M11M to a hybrid or mechanical shutter, you are getting the same (or very close to) experience you used to have with M10M. Sorry, if I am missing something here.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Bitbooll
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[hmzimelka]

4 hours ago, Bitbooll said:

Yes, I also find rolling shutter artefacts a huge M11M's issue. Really bad engineering from Leica, considering M11M is a high-end (sort of) camera and should be on par with Canon EOS 5D Mark IV, Sony A7RIV, Nikon Z9 etc, in this respect. Surprisingly (!), Q2M had a very decent implementation of its electronic shutter, and I was expecting M11M to be at least at the same level of its implementation. Alas!

When you say "I just want my M10M back" you refer to a camera that didn't have an electronic shutter. So, if you set your M11M to a hybrid or mechanical shutter, you are getting the same (or very close to) experience you used to have with M10M. Sorry, if I am missing something here.

I find the M11's shutter system with the "always open" sensor to be a little hit and miss. It's a good camera, but I don't think it's a good fit for me, and if I had the choice I would choose the M10M over the M11 or the M11M. I think Leica needs to use a sensor like that in the Z9/Z8 with a global shutter that can legitimately replace a mechanical shutter. 

I still enjoy shooting the electric stapler M11, but I certainly enjoyed the M10M more while I had it.

Edited June 5, 2023 by hmzimelka

[Photoworks]

11 hours ago, hmzimelka said:

I find the M11's shutter system with the "always open" sensor to be a little hit and miss. It's a good camera, but I don't think it's a good fit for me, and if I had the choice I would choose the M10M over the M11 or the M11M. I think Leica needs to use a sensor like that in the Z9/Z8 with a global shutter that can legitimately replace a mechanical shutter. 

I still enjoy shooting the electric stapler M11, but I certainly enjoyed the M10M more while I had it.

Well, it is said so easy to want this and that. The reality is the company research different technologies based on its history and current lineup.

I think the intention was to make a camera that does better live view, has a new lightmeter system, keeps the same size, and at the same time uses all the M lenses.

It is nice to dream about z9 or A1, but if you look at what is involved in building that sensor, plus it is probably twice the size of the M11 board.
It would never fit at this time, and the M11 sensor is actually a really good sensor, one of the best implementations on the market in my opinion. The Z9 still has the problem of occasional banding.

The light meter of the gray patch used in so many M cameras was designed for the R8, and the manufacturer that was making it for Leica was not able to produce them anymore. Leica had to find a solution to meter of the sensor or engineer a sensor. 

To me, this camera is only a tool and I am pleased to get great results with M11, I would not want to go back to M10-s

Mayne in a few years they learn from this production and the next one. Surprise as with a great new idea.

[hmzimelka]

7 hours ago, Photoworks said:

Well, it is said so easy to want this and that. The reality is the company research different technologies based on its history and current lineup.

I think the intention was to make a camera that does better live view, has a new lightmeter system, keeps the same size, and at the same time uses all the M lenses.

It is nice to dream about z9 or A1, but if you look at what is involved in building that sensor, plus it is probably twice the size of the M11 board.
It would never fit at this time, and the M11 sensor is actually a really good sensor, one of the best implementations on the market in my opinion. The Z9 still has the problem of occasional banding.

The light meter of the gray patch used in so many M cameras was designed for the R8, and the manufacturer that was making it for Leica was not able to produce them anymore. Leica had to find a solution to meter of the sensor or engineer a sensor. 

To me, this camera is only a tool and I am pleased to get great results with M11, I would not want to go back to M10-s

Mayne in a few years they learn from this production and the next one. Surprise as with a great new idea.

No doubt it wasn't easy for Leica to make the decisions leading to the M11. But Leica can't please everyone, and at this level, a user can often be quite specific with demands in order to be comfortable with the tool. It's just my opinion and how I feel about using the M11. It's not bad enough for me to sell, but I'm not harmonising with it. It works, it's a great camera, but I was happier with the M10M. 

I felt the same about the Z6II/Z7II cameras compared to the D810/D850. 

My largest concerns for the future is whether Leica gets to grips with their many issues in quality. 

[nineteenfocus]

In 5 years time, LV from Foto app will be installed to the Apple sunglasses probably we won’t need the screen anymore 

M12 will be again a true rangefinder like the M10-D 🥳

[Patrick Morgan]

I personally would never use a flip screen for a Leica though I use it all the time for my Sony. The reason - I use the Sony flip screen for super wide angle images where my camera is inches from the ground and I'm focus stacking foreground elements. That will never happen with a Leica M given the minimum focusing distance. It is what it is. And for "from the hip" shooting, there are other systems made for that - Fuji, Ricoh, new Leica Q3.

I actually cover my LCD screen as is since my purpose of the M is using the rangefinder - the experience of seeing the real world with my camera against my eye.

BUT, it the dimensions are exactly the same, I don't mind the M having a feature that I would not use but would be useful to others. So bring it on (though based on the Q3, maintaining the flat back dimensions may not be possible).

Edited June 15, 2023 by Patrick Morgan

[sebben]

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I don’t understand why people always seem to be asking the M to become something other than it is. There are 1000 other cameras with flip screens. Just buy one of those instead and let the M be unique in this bland photo equipment epoch that we find ourselves in. 

 

[jdlaing]

4 minutes ago, sebben said:

I don’t understand why people always seem to be asking the M to become something other than it is. There are 1000 other cameras with flip screens. Just buy one of those instead and let the M be unique in this bland photo equipment epoch that we find ourselves in. 

 

Truer words were never spoken.