M10-R differences

[tap360]

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I am looking to upgrade an old M9, which I still love despite its frustrations.

I have 2 options, a mint M10-P, or an M10-R with a few marks. Same dealer price with warranty (both well under £4k which seems reasonable).

I am minded to choose the M10-R thinking sensor might be more unique and it may hold value better.  Possibly closest to my M9?
At the moment I just have a Leica 28mm f5.6 Summaron and voigtlander 35mm f2 Ultron ii lens but will be looking for a 50mm too.

Aside from megapixels, I was hoping some folks might offer any insights on real world differences between M10-P and M10-R? Any issues I should think about (low light?)
 

Either way, I will probably miss the M9 !

[erl]

I have the M10. Not P or R. Posts on this forum indicate that the M10-R (60MP?) demands a higher shutter speed in low light. I work a lot in low and very low light using the M10 and when necessary, the f1.0 Noctilux. Shooting the M10 @ 64000iso is very doable. Surprisingly good images, but not in flat lighting. I understand that the larger pixel count of the M10-R more easily shows up camera shake at lower shutter speeds, consequently demanding faster speeds. When my Noctilux is not appropriate, I need slower speeds, so I feel my M10 is 'superior' in such situations.

I am sure there will be more expert illumination appearing here soon, so stay tuned, as will I.

[darylgo]

Highlight recovery on the M10-R (40mp) is a significant improvement over all previous Leica sensors.  The M10-P is a bit more stealthy if that matters.  
 

Both cameras are very capable, the megapixel difference is not as significant as the hype would lead one to believe. Personally, the dynamic range is much more limiting than resolution.  

[otto.f]

1 hour ago, tap360 said:

Possibly closest to my M9?

Yes, I owned the M10 for a year only, because couldn’t get the colors out of it within a reasonable time. The M10-R is much better, not as oversaturated as the M10 or the M11. In the beginning I had some movement blur sometimes, but that has vanished. Still, if you can afford it, I would keep the M9 along with it, for a while at least. I miss it sometimes because it’s much more straight forward, the menus of more recent M’s irritate me, too many options that stand in the way. I love the results though, colors can be so satisfying, especially with my Summicron 35 iv. As neutral as the M9 but fuller though not oversaturated, don’t know how to explain. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by otto.f

[lucy63]

You will miss the M9 for sure, I just adored that camera with the original sensor. I use an M10-R but looking to sell it and replace it with an M10 because I find the colour rendering is too saturated..I had the M10-D for a while and now regret selling it for the M11. The M10-R works flawlessly which was a relief after having two M11's which bricked, I couldn't trust the camera but the colour rendering was SO nice. 

[tap360]

Thanks. I must admit I am tempted to hang on to the M9...

I have done some quick tests and compared M10 to an M240 and couldn't tell much difference and if anything preferred the output from the M240! The M10 shots looked a bit bland to me (but obviously much better in low light)  which is tricky for me given M10 is around £2k more than a used M240.

Am hoping M10-R might be a bit more unique - although don't need 40MP - even with some fairly standard lenses

[pgh]

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You have a lot of conflicting opinions here, just to point out. The R is nice because it’s not oversaturated like the og M10. Looking to sell the R bc it’s too saturated. Ha. Personally I find the m10 to have pretty understated (in a good way) out of box color. Shoot it next to a Sony or whatever and you can see it plainly. 
 

Anyways, besides the sensor, the main differences btwn the R and the P are quite minimal and cosmetic. I would choose a dinged up R every time. The sensor is a real step up in every way, and you can have whatever color you want in post. But the files are more malleable. I don’t understand why people pay for minty camera - esp when buying from a dealer who will warranty - when they’re gonna get used. A camera with a few scuffs is the best sort to go out and get some more with. 

[newtoleica]

I have a P, but if I had the choice of an R for the same money I might have gone for that. I prefer the look of the P, but its a minor concern. I got my P for £4,700 and cheapest I saw an R was £5,500 when I bought a few months ago. So you have a good deal whatever.

FWIW I'm perfectly happy with the P files and their malleability - but its a personal thing about what and how you shoot and what you want from processing (minor tweaks only in my case).

[Adam Bonn]

I own the 10R and M9p.

I've also owned the M10 and 240

Compared to the M9 colours...

If you shoot enough things with the same lens at the same time with the Mx and M9 cameras, then between all of them sometimes the colours look kinda similar but many times not.

IMHO it's really the tonality of the M9 that gives it its look (others might disagree)

Also colour is rather dependant upon your RAW app and exposure choices

The M10/p/d has a strong native to the RAW file tone curve in the shadow end, and doesn't have particularly great highlight recovery.

The M10r has a kinda more open (for want of a better word) native tone curve and more malleable files

Put more correctly the M10R has more exposure latitude than the 24px M10 range

The 10R has a base ISO of 100.

The 24px M10 range has a base ISO of more than 100 but less than 200 (chose a value yourself from the various figures touted by various people), but whatever it is it's not user selectable, so you're either pushing or pulling a bit. IMHO ISO 200 is your friend on the 24px M10 range

The touchscreen, quiet shutter, red dot/no red dot, top script/no top script are more or less personal preferences.

FWIW getting the 10r after the 10 I'm pleased with the quiet shutter and I a little bit use the touchscreen OMWV

The 240 is a good budget choice, but the ISO gets gnarly quickly compared to the more modern Ms, the body feels (and is) fatter, pushing the files hard can result in 'green shadows' and -to my eye at least- the WB can be on the warm side.

A lot of camera for comparatively little money though.

My personal view is that the M10R is a better camera than the M10 in ways that a spec sheet and DR chart can't really communicate. It's probably a harder choice between M10P and R as the P has all the features of the R except the sensor.

Unless one has a particular preference for the little nuances or pixel count from the 24px sensor, then the 40px R sensor is superior in every measurable metric.

 

 

 

[Greenhilltony]

Color oversaturated/bland? The most funny joke ever for digital cameras. You see in this thread, someone says the R is bland while the other says it is oversaturated. The subtle differences will be flushed away in post-processing with the one-click presets just like you press the button on toilet. Focus on the differences/improvements which can really help you capture the picture you want, e.g. high ISO availability/performance, high-light recovery, shutter speed tolerance for hand-held, need for larger-size output, etc..

[otto.f]

2 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

The 10R has a base ISO of 100.

Is that finite? Wasn't it around 160 after testing (by Adan?), or am I mistaken?

[Adam Bonn]

2 minutes ago, otto.f said:

Is that finite? Wasn't it around 160 after testing (by Adan?), or am I mistaken?

IIRC… You’re not mistaken about Andy’s test, but about the camera, which was the M10 not the M10R (different sensor on the R)

[Adam Bonn]

24 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

IIRC… You’re not mistaken about Andy’s test, but about the camera, which was the M10 not the M10R (different sensor on the R)

Actually just to clarify… there’s several standards for measuring ISO (like there is temperature or velocity, weight etc)

So rather than saying ‘the M10R has a base ISO of x’ it’s probably more correct to say the “the base ISO of the M10R is selectable by the user, the base ISO of the M10/p/d is not” 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Adam Bonn

[lucy63]

6 hours ago, tap360 said:

Thanks. I must admit I am tempted to hang on to the M9...

I have done some quick tests and compared M10 to an M240 and couldn't tell much difference and if anything preferred the output from the M240! The M10 shots looked a bit bland to me (but obviously much better in low light)  which is tricky for me given M10 is around £2k more than a used M240.

Am hoping M10-R might be a bit more unique - although don't need 40MP - even with some fairly standard lenses

M8,M9 (with original sensor)and M11 are unique, the M10 M10-R aren't. IMO

[wizard]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb tap360:

I have 2 options, a mint M10-P, or an M10-R with a few marks.

With digital cameras, I would always go for the more modern camera. All things considered, there still is improvement from one generation to the next, and repairability will be possible for a longer period of time.

 

vor 8 Stunden schrieb erl:

Posts on this forum indicate that the M10-R (60MP?) demands a higher shutter speed in low light.

My experience is different. I was able to obtain sharp results with the M10R down to at least 1/15s, which I found quite remarkable.

[tap360]

That you for all the feedback.  Dealer has agreed to let me try the M10-P and M10-R, so I can judge for myself. Quite happy with a less pristine version, and not worried about the red dot, look and feel will be the same...so will just focus on images.

is the M10-R battery same as M10-P, if so I may need to think on a spare.

BTW, if anyone has or knows where I can find a spare M10 charger at a reasonable price, I might be in the market for one!!

[otto.f]

3 hours ago, wizard said:

 

 

My experience is different. I was able to obtain sharp results with the M10R down to at least 1/15s, which I found quite remarkable.

Yes indeed, sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t. In the end I’m more conscious to keep my camera steady than was necessary with 18Mp, which is fun. Also usefull for my M7 when loaded with 50ASA

[tap360]

So have been using this weekend.  Love the M10 camera, feels so well made with a fabulous interface. The c £4k price for the truly mint M10-P and just under for M10-R seems very fair which makes it tempting.

However, finding both M10-P and M10-R a bit harder to focus than my M9 which I didn't expect. To be honest, not sure either worth the extra £2k for me as a casual user, although slightly prefer the M10-R colours.

Am now minded to hold on to the M9 for a bit longer or look out for a M240 to get LV, or look at an SL or Q to give me some autofocus as a complement or just keep the savings for maybe a new lens or an M11 in future...am I crazy?

 

 

[erl]

Yes, but it is completely legal.😄

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[otto.f]

8 hours ago, tap360 said:

although slightly prefer the M10-R colours.

You wouldn’t be the first one who will be disappointed with the M11 if you like the M10-R. Reviewers may tell me what they like about the colors being corrected to your likings in a second, but my experience with the M10 is that exaggerated colors are difficult to tame in a minute with the saturation slider.