Shooting DNG + JPG B&W with Capture One Pro

[dpitt]

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I am new to Capture One 23, and very happy so far. I used several PP software applications before, including Aperture and Lightroom (v 6).
As the title says I often shoot my Leica's in DNG + JPG mode with the JPG set to B&W.

In LR, I can load both files as separate entities and when loading LR initially shows a B&W preview for each picture (also for the DNG because it uses the embedded jpeg). After processing all imported files, the DNG previews show up in color. When I am culling, I like to see both B&W(jpg) and color(DNG) versions of the same shot so I can decide what works best.

In C1P, the culling is very fast and easy to use. However it keeps using the original embedded JPG to preview the DNG files. This makes that, when I am now culling the files, I only see B&W versions. Once I go in processing mode, C1 shows colors at the first modification I make in a DNG file. But even after using 'Regenerate Previews' the culling window keeps showing the DNG files in B&W.

My hope is that some of the experienced C1 users have found a workaround to allow culling Color and B&W versions as I am used to with LR. It should be possible in some way, no?

Edited April 14, 2023 by dpitt

[hansvons]

I use C1 intensively but can't help you with this issue. I'd post the question in the C1 user forum.

[dpitt]

7 hours ago, hansvons said:

I use C1 intensively but can't help you with this issue. I'd post the question in the C1 user forum.

I now found a workaround using my old LR version.

Before I import my RAW files in C1, I import them in LR and then use 'Save Previews and Metadata' on all of them, before making any changes in LR. This operation replaces the B&W preview inside the RAW files with a color one. I will post this issue on the C1 forum and update here if I get a solution.

[Bart D]

5 hours ago, dpitt said:

I now found a workaround using my old LR version.

Before I import my RAW files in C1, I import them in LR and then use 'Save Previews and Metadata' on all of them, before making any changes in LR. This operation replaces the B&W preview inside the RAW files with a color one. I will post this issue on the C1 forum and update here if I get a solution.

I don't use the fast culling precisely because it used the embedded jpg. And the embedded jpg is b&w in your case of course.

I suggested having a preference setting to either work with the embedded jpg or with rendering the dng. Media Pro had no trouble keeping up while rendering the dng file.
The preference setting hasn't surfaced yet 

 

[dpitt]

2 hours ago, Bart D said:

I suggested having a preference setting to either work with the embedded jpg or with rendering the dng. Media Pro had no trouble keeping up while rendering the dng file.
The preference setting hasn't surfaced yet 

 

Your suggested preference setting would help (if my old macbook can keep up). An other option would be to have an option on Regenerate previews to update the embedded preview in the DNG file. I understand purists will never touch a DNG raw source file, but updating the embedded preview will not touch the RAW data at all.

No solution on the C1 forum yet. Some wanted to know why I would bother with the culling preview to cull my pictures . They suggested I would just use the standard view, which would work but is slower and does not have the grouping feature, which is ideal for this situation. I do have at least 2 images per group of course and often many more variants. An other one suggested to do culling with my file system before importing . My most recent shoot had 580 pictures (290 individual shots) , some have over 1000 or more.

It looks like I will have to keep using an other application like LR to update the embedded previews before importing into C1 for a while.

[Bart D]

On 4/15/2023 at 6:25 PM, dpitt said:

Your suggested preference setting would help (if my old macbook can keep up). An other option would be to have an option on Regenerate previews to update the embedded preview in the DNG file. I understand purists will never touch a DNG raw source file, but updating the embedded preview will not touch the RAW data at all.

No solution on the C1 forum yet. Some wanted to know why I would bother with the culling preview to cull my pictures . They suggested I would just use the standard view, which would work but is slower and does not have the grouping feature, which is ideal for this situation. I do have at least 2 images per group of course and often many more variants. An other one suggested to do culling with my file system before importing . My most recent shoot had 580 pictures (290 individual shots) , some have over 1000 or more.

It looks like I will have to keep using an other application like LR to update the embedded previews before importing into C1 for a while.

You can count on the Capture One team to fall into the group of "purists".
They even refuse to write keyword and such into a DNG file while the DNG specification states that these should be written into the DNG file 🤔

[dpitt]

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1 hour ago, Bart D said:

You can count on the Capture One team to fall into the group of "purists".
They even refuse to write keyword and such into a DNG file while the DNG specification states that these should be written into the DNG file 🤔

That was what I was afraid of. Too much of a good thing is not always that great...

[roydonian]

21 hours ago, Bart D said:

You can count on the Capture One team to fall into the group of "purists".
They even refuse to write keyword and such into a DNG file while the DNG specification states that these should be written into the DNG file 🤔

I've been using computers for 60 years, and one bit of advice I was given early on was that the only time that a master copy should be loaded into a computer is when you need to make a working copy. That 'golden rule' has served me well since then.

Back in the early 1980s I was shocked to discover the original floppy disks of computer  software that I'd bought could not be used to create a working copies. To keep my software investments safe, I set about learning how to 'crack' copy-protection schemes.

In today's world of digital cameras, I stick to that 'golden rule', and never make any kind of change to my DNGs.

[dpitt]

1 hour ago, roydonian said:

I've been using computers for 60 years, and one bit of advice I was given early on was that the only time that a master copy should be loaded into a computer is when you need to make a working copy. That 'golden rule' has served me well since then.

Back in the early 1980s I was shocked to discover the original floppy disks of computer  software that I'd bought could not be used to create a working copies. To keep my software investments safe, I set about learning how to 'crack' copy-protection schemes.

In today's world of digital cameras, I stick to that 'golden rule', and never make any kind of change to my DNGs.

I agree with not touching the RAW data of a camera. I have now devised a workflow that allows me to leave all my RAWs untouched (except for the B&W preview).

1. All RAW files are imported in a big RAW archive before any processing (with out of cam JPGs)
2. A copy of the RAW files is copied over to my PP app of choice together with the out of cam JPG. Culling limits the number of files I am going to work on.
3. I 'develop' all the best RAW files to a finished full JPG in highest quality. (or several variants of it). These JPGs are exported to a JPG archive, separate from the RAW archive.
   All these JPG files contain any metadata info added: keywords, location, ratings, flags...
4. And of course I export the processed RAW files to any other format needed, LUF, printing in different sizes...
5. The role of my PP software is now over. Of course I also archive the project files, catalogs, sessions... But I found that software is hard to keep up to date. Most of my projects from 20 years ago are now completely obsolete. Project files can not be opened anymore or have become corrupted over time. But I can always get all my data back including ratings and such, even when I move all files around on my file system, because they are stored in the files themselves. The free Digikam is very good at this ( it is kind of a mini Photo Mechanic from what I saw online). It manages over 100K of my images now scattered over several disks.

When I change PP, forced by system upgrade, or by a program stop (see Apple Aperture), I can now simply import my RAWs again into the new software. If I want to work on old files,

1. I start by making a selection in my JPG archive in Digikam.
2. They are  then exported to the new project folder.
3. I run a shell script that is able to search my 50K RAW files for any matching files. All my files start with the same unique name (i.e. the original file name, made sure it is unique by setting up some camera's with different prefixes) It copies them over to the new project folder.
4. The files can be imported in the new software and get 'developed' on.
5. Output of this is archived as full JPG in the JPG archive.

I just switched from LR to C1 v23 and found I needed one step 3b before I can do step 4 with C1. 3b is importing the RAW files in LR and clicking on 'Save metadata and previews' to make any B&W previews color again as they should be IMO. Then I proceed with step 4.

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by dpitt

[ianforber]

On 4/14/2023 at 4:52 PM, dpitt said:

I am new to Capture One 23, and very happy so far. I used several PP software applications before, including Aperture and Lightroom (v 6).
As the title says I often shoot my Leica's in DNG + JPG mode with the JPG set to B&W.

In LR, I can load both files as separate entities and when loading LR initially shows a B&W preview for each picture (also for the DNG because it uses the embedded jpeg). After processing all imported files, the DNG previews show up in color. When I am culling, I like to see both B&W(jpg) and color(DNG) versions of the same shot so I can decide what works best.

In C1P, the culling is very fast and easy to use. However it keeps using the original embedded JPG to preview the DNG files. This makes that, when I am now culling the files, I only see B&W versions. Once I go in processing mode, C1 shows colors at the first modification I make in a DNG file. But even after using 'Regenerate Previews' the culling window keeps showing the DNG files in B&W.

My hope is that some of the experienced C1 users have found a workaround to allow culling Color and B&W versions as I am used to with LR. It should be possible in some way, no?

I just connect my SD card to the computer and “import all” in Capture One. It acts precisely as you want it to - colour DNG and B&W jpeg. I haven’t changed any of the settings or used anything other than the default import mechanism

[dpitt]

2 hours ago, ianforber said:

I just connect my SD card to the computer and “import all” in Capture One. It acts precisely as you want it to - colour DNG and B&W jpeg. I haven’t changed any of the settings or used anything other than the default import mechanism

Are you using the culling window and are the DNG previews color while the jpegs stay B&W in the culling window? I see B&W only in the culling window, and color for the DNG in the normal processing windows.

[ianforber]

22 hours ago, dpitt said:

Are you using the culling window and are the DNG previews color while the jpegs stay B&W in the culling window? I see B&W only in the culling window, and color for the DNG in the normal processing windows.

Hmm, very odd. I’ve never used the culling window so tried it out just now. As you say, the DNGs are presented as black and white, same as the JPEGs. I then tried using my normal importing method, just using the import screen. This time, the DNGs were also displayed as black and white. I could swear that this was not previously the case but I’m now wondering whether I have mis-remembered how it previously behaved or whether using the culling screen has prompted a change.

After import, the DNGs display as colour once the previews have been generated. Interestingly, when I then select them to display in the culling widow, it reverts back to the DNGs being displayed as black and white (with two exceptions that display as colour) even though all the DNGs are displayed in colour in the Library. 

A bug perhaps?

[dpitt]

5 hours ago, ianforber said:

...

A bug perhaps?

No it is intended to work like this. The culling window is optimised for speed and does only use the embedded preview jpeg of the DNG. This is the one your camera saved with the settings as they were shot. In this case it is B&W. Even Regenerate previews will not touch the original DNG file, so the embedded jpegs stay in B&W while previews for any other window are updated to color.

It is not a bug when it works as intended, but the intended workflow is not always what is most useful. At least they should offer an option for the culling window to use the DNG itself (slowing down the process) or best for me would be a special menu command to Regenerate embedded jpegs also.

[ianforber]

On 4/19/2023 at 6:52 PM, dpitt said:

No it is intended to work like this. The culling window is optimised for speed and does only use the embedded preview jpeg of the DNG. This is the one your camera saved with the settings as they were shot. In this case it is B&W. Even Regenerate previews will not touch the original DNG file, so the embedded jpegs stay in B&W while previews for any other window are updated to color.

It is not a bug when it works as intended, but the intended workflow is not always what is most useful. At least they should offer an option for the culling window to use the DNG itself (slowing down the process) or best for me would be a special menu command to Regenerate embedded jpegs also.

Very helpful info, thank you