Adapter // Infinity focus // FLE

[Mak67]

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Maybe it is juste my sample of the wate which is Bad ... 

[Photoworks]

Slower lenses are difficult to focus quickly on SL2. I have the same issue with the SEM 21mm 3.4

Most M lenses don't perform well as the SL lenses from Leica, there are always plus and cons.

I like the 50 Noctilux on the SL2, I can focus it wide open without any focus assist activated.

[Mak67]

I did really want to make it works, because it would allowed me to sale my Sl2 backup and take again an M ... Having two différents caméra and sharing the lenses between the two plateforme...

But not working for me...

Edited April 15, 2023 by Mak67

[Jean-Michel]

The difficulty of focusing the WATE, especially at the 16 mm focal length, precisely on a dot or line or whatever is simply due to the fact that that the target is so tiny in the viewfinder and enlarging the view shows artifacts around those tiny objects. Same situation when used with an EVF on a M body. Even wide open at f/4 the image appears mostly in focus no matter where one focuses.

I do not own the 16-35 L lens but obviously that one auto-focuses and can make getting exact focus location easier to find. 

I recently traded al my film M bodies and an M9 but keep the M-P (and EVF) for use with my M lenses and particularly for using the WATE. When using the WATE, I focus with the rangefinder and frame with the EVF; I often use the WATE from a low perspective and the flip feature of the EVF is very useful.

As the WATE image quality: the largest print size I make, using a 24 inch printer, is 20 by 30 inches, and even at nose-length inspection the images look perfectly fine.

[davidmknoble]

A copule of additional things to consider.

1. @Mak67 do you have an M body to try the WATE on?  Could your issue be with the lens?

2. The EVF and focus peaking with the WATE is very different than with a 35mm or 50mm focal length.  The focus peaking does not register well on many subjects and it appears to be in focus in the EVF but is not actually there.

3. The WATE is known for focusing very far back when stopping down instead of moving just a little bit.  Presumably this is in part due to the very wide nature of the lens and extreme depth of field out of the box.

Do you have any other M lenses to try?

I have 2 M-L adapters, an R-L, R-M, S-L all Leica and Nikon AIS-L adapter (novex) and have had zero focusing issues with any of the lenses I mount.  I have occasional misses, but in general focus is spot on.

So, just trying to rule out the WATE as the problem over the adapter or the focus peaking not registering as expected.

[Mak67]

Hi Davidmknoble,

Yes i use my other M lenses with good succes (35/50/90).

Again, using hi-rez caméra, and being picky on focus and image output.

Definitly 2 of 3 Leica adapter where really off, front focusing a lot (not a problème with my other lenses), but this were putting the fle/asph system of thé wate in bad correction (good corner/poor center).

The last adapter was the best, by a large margin, so i got much better center and lost a bit on corner but image was overall much better.

Still, it was too hard to focus using liveview for perfect focus.

And Infinity focus was not the same with all 3 focal, which might also be problematic on m11 (with a lot of résolution) using the rangefinder instead of liveview , as reported before: 

Then at f8 best overall Infinity picture with my  best adapter (out of 3 tested) , i get : 

16mm : 1mm past 5m

18mm: 2mm past 5m

21mm: 1mm before infinity stop

That's mean the rangefinder will focus infinity the same for all focal Lens, but definitly real focus, will be off on some focal.(For exemple, If the rangefinder focus accuratly on the 16mm then it would be off on the 21)

i think it might be a brillant Lens on 24mpx ... But not an easy Lens on high rez sensor.

 

But, i might have a bad process or a Bad Lens sample. i would love to see an exemple of good focused image at Infinity using the wate on Sl2 or M11.

Fell free to share some raws! 

[BernardC]

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27 minutes ago, Mak67 said:

And Infinity focus was not the same with all 3 focal, which might also be problematic on m11

You shouldn't find the same issue with an M, as long as it is properly adjusted. The problem is the adapter, it has to be slightly short of ideal length in order to reach infinity with any lens (provided the lens is within tolerances).

The adapter is essentially a single piece, so it can't economically be designed to compensate for thermal expansion. That isn't a big problem in most cases, since you'll focus by eye.

As mentioned earlier the WATE is the most difficult M lens for infinity focus, because it has the shortest focal length. As I demonstrated earlier, it is 10x more sensitive in that regard, compared to a 50mm lens.

31 minutes ago, Mak67 said:

That's mean the rangefinder will focus infinity the same for all focal Lens, but definitly real focus, will be off on some focal.(

Any zoom lens can only be parfocal at one back-focus distance. Your adapter gives you an incorrect BFD, therefore the distance scale doesn't match-up at different focal lengths.

[Mak67]

If well calibrated, rangefinder will Always focus Infinity at the Infinity stop on the Lens, but as you sée up hère, Infinity focus doesn't match between 16-18and21 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Mak67

[Mak67]

So if thé Lens is calibrated for 16 then 21 will be off, and if calibrated for 21 then 16 ...

[Mak67]

If you have any good Infinity focused pictures with thé wate and hi-res sensor, please share

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, Mak67 said:

So if thé Lens is calibrated for 16 then 21 will be off, and if calibrated for 21 then 16 ...

No. There is a back-focus distance where the lens is accurate at all focal lengths. The back-focus distance is determined by the camera (camera+adapter in your case), not by the lens.

Back-focus is a common adjustment for cinema cameras. Cinema lenses are designed to be focused by scale. The back-focus distance tolerance is much finer for Leica M cameras than it is for any other still camera, because of how it affects rangefinder accuracy. That's part of the reason why Ms are so expensive, they need to meet 1/100mm tolerances. There was an internet storm many years ago because Konica released an M-mount camera with the wrong flange focal distance (28mm vs. 27.80mm), so their lenses wouldn't focus accurately  on Leica cameras (and vice-versa).

You are trying to scale-focus a very wide zoom (the WATE is effectively a zoom), using an adapter that is slightly short by design. That won't work, but you can still focus by eye.

 

[hansvons]

3 hours ago, BernardC said:

You shouldn't find the same issue with an M, as long as it is properly adjusted. The problem is the adapter, it has to be slightly short of ideal length in order to reach infinity with any lens (provided the lens is within tolerances).

Exactly. I bought a TT Artisan M-L mount adapter some time ago. With the 35mm Summicron M ASPH, infinity was not met because the adapter provided some wiggle room. That is quite different from my new Novoflex adapter, which meets infinity quite accurately as proper M lenses are built to meet the precise focal length that a range finder needs; thus the adapter can be made to higher specifications. That is what the Novoflex adapter provides and also very likely Leica's own adapter. 

There's another aspect to a precise adaptor: vignetting is less pronounced. 

[Mak67]

You don't really get it, there is not juste one problem but at least 3 from my point if view : 

-there is really a problem regarding focal flange adapter and the way the fle système impact corner vs center résolution due to bad distance set on the Lens 

- the wate is a zoom and in this case best Infinity focus doesn't match at each focal Lens ... So for best Lens sharpness @ Infinity you have to focus at a différent distance if you shoot  at 16 18 or 21 mm. But there is just 1  rangefinder cam ... But maybe i'm wrong on this, just pure expectations.

-my sample of the wate was very difficult to focus due to poor contrast/sharpness wide open, contrats ok at f8 but difficult due to dof and screen liveview.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Mak67

[BernardC]

18 hours ago, Mak67 said:

- the wate is a zoom and in this case best Infinity focus doesn't match at each focal Lens ... So for best Lens sharpness @ Infinity you have to focus at a différent distance if you shoot  at 16 18 or 21 mm. But there is just 1  rangefinder cam ... But maybe i'm wrong on this, just pure expectations.

Have you tried this on an M? We know that the M-L adapter is slightly short of ideal, which means that zooms won't be parfocal. Even cinema zooms that cost many tens of thousands aren't parfocal if the back-focus distance is wrong.

If you have tried this on an M and it's still wrong, the solution is to send the lens and body to Leica so they can both be adjusted to the same specifications.

If you've only tried it on the SL, you should still contact Leica service to see if they can adjust your adapter to your lens (or if the lens needs to be serviced).

18 hours ago, Mak67 said:

-my sample of the wate was very difficult to focus due to poor contrast/sharpness wide open, contrats ok at f8 but difficult due to dof and screen liveview.

It's a slow ultra-wide. It is difficult to focus by eye.

[Mak67]

I juste gave up, and returned the lens ... 

My sl16-35 is just perfect except it doesn't fit on the M