m11 camera shake VS m10-r

[gotium]

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10 minutes ago, Harout62 said:

I am in Toronto Canada , and I took all 4 images in a matter of 3to4 minutes 1 shot at each Shutter speed casually just sitting in a chair in my garage.

these were not cherry picked from multiple try’s one shot each 

focus , take a deep breath and shoot.. I have consistently taken sharp images at speeds below my focal length without any issues. 

I've always wanted to visit Toronto...

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[Harout62]

22 minutes ago, gotium said:

I've always wanted to visit Toronto...

Well then drop by and we can work on solving the problem together, Look it is always better to photograph at least 1F but in some circumstances you can go under. 

[ryanlowry]

1 hour ago, Harout62 said:

Ok after reading this thread and half a dozen more like this in the past year I just went out in my garage and took a few shots to put this to bed 

M11  50mm Summilux Asph All shots hand held  first shot at 1/60th f 2.8 No Shake no shutter slap 

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this image has camera shake... can easily see in the text on the can - while I consider this totally usable it definitely has shake.

[ryanlowry]

2 hours ago, DenverSteve said:

I would like to know your settings.  If you are shooting outdoor, with strobe, and getting motion blur, it sounds like your shutter speed is set too low.  Maybe post a couple of pictures with your data so we can see. If you're shooting with strobe, outdoor, I would keep my shutter speed as high as possible and let the strobe do its job to freeze the image.

I can't post the entire image as its for a shoot and this image wasn't published... but here's a screenshot of the settings and the issue.

The shake wouldn't of happened if it was inside as the flash would of froze the motion, but since it was outside both the flash exposed, and then the ambient. 

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[ryanlowry]

beautiful histogram though.... 

 

more concerned about the amount of shake vs M10-R rather than the discussion over me experiencing shake or not. 

[sometimesmaybe]

1 hour ago, mark1958a said:

I was just about to order the Godox Trigger for my M11--- so at this point it will not work?  I saw a similar comment after reading yours  on the bhphoto website review. 

alas not at the moment (by this i mean there is no HSS sync above 1/180). ive written to Godox recently re the lack of HSS support for the m240/246 and this was their response... they wont have the cameras to test 🤷‍♂️ 

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[Harout62]

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here is yet another set just shot to confirm, Same set up 50mm  Summilux Asph 

1st shot is at 1/250th of a second   the second is at 1/60th.    

the Only difference I see is the grain of the Higher ISO   there is no shake 

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[ryanlowry]

2 minutes ago, Harout62 said:

here is yet another set just shot to confirm, Same set up 50mm  Summilux Asph 

1st shot is at 1/250th of a second   the second is at 1/60th.    

the Only difference I see is the grain of the Higher ISO   there is no shake 

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Thanks for the pissing contest, maybe you can post your can pictures in the m11 image thread. ❤️
 

anyone have answers about the m10-r vs m11? 

[Harout62]

19 minutes ago, ryanlowry said:

Thanks for the pissing contest, maybe you can post your can pictures in the m11 image thread. ❤️
 

anyone have answers about the m10-r vs m11? 

Pissing contest ??   Here is your answer there is no difference.

[sometimesmaybe]

35 minutes ago, ryanlowry said:

I can't post the entire image as its for a shoot and this image wasn't published... but here's a screenshot of the settings and the issue.

pls feel free to ignore if you've already checked, but some thoughts just crossed by mind. no idea if they apply to your situation, but might give you some things to eliminate from the equation 🤓 

1. i assume there is nothing wrong with your lens calibration - try another lens;
2. check OVF calibration / alignment - try shooting in liveview;
3. is the DOF too shallow - sometimes when i shoot close to my subject using my CV35mm f1.2, one eye is in focus and the other is slightly out;
4. is the subject moving - i countdown for my subjects (who are normally conditioned to react to the AF beep);
5. location of the subject in the frame - IQ is alway worse towards the edge

if your strobe doesn't support HSS with the leica, my current workaround at the moment is to push ISO and use a 45W LED panel. i look like a dork, but i cant argue with the results 🙂   

[Jeff S]

Still haven’t addressed my question.

Jeff

[ryanlowry]

8 minutes ago, Harout62 said:

Pissing contest ??   Here is your answer there is no difference.

while we are having fun... maybe you can post similar examples crouched down in an uncomfortable position and lets see if you get the same results.... usually I don't have a chair to sit in while I shoot on set... 

[ryanlowry]

3 hours ago, Jeff S said:

OP…. Viewing magnification and distance?  Identical to m10?

Jeff

sorry Jeff, didn't mean to ignore you... you mean distance from camera to subject? Over 5 years using m10 I never had camera shake as bad as I have had on m11. Many different distances, using on camera flash, external lighting etc. 

[Harout62]

6 minutes ago, ryanlowry said:

while we are having fun... maybe you can post similar examples crouched down in an uncomfortable position and lets see if you get the same results.... usually I don't have a chair to sit in while I shoot on set... 

Lol , I could take this to another level, but I will show some respect and leave things be 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Harout62

[ryanlowry]

13 minutes ago, sometimesmaybe said:

pls feel free to ignore if you've already checked, but some thoughts just crossed by mind. no idea if they apply to your situation, but might give you some things to eliminate from the equation 🤓 

1. i assume there is nothing wrong with your lens calibration - try another lens;
2. check OVF calibration / alignment - try shooting in liveview;
3. is the DOF too shallow - sometimes when i shoot close to my subject using my CV35mm f1.2, one eye is in focus and the other is slightly out;
4. is the subject moving - i countdown for my subjects (who are normally conditioned to react to the AF beep);
5. location of the subject in the frame - IQ is alway worse towards the edge

if your strobe doesn't support HSS with the leica, my current workaround at the moment is to push ISO and use a 45W LED panel. i look like a dork, but i cant argue with the results 🙂   

Lens works flawlessly on m9, the problem is clearly camera shake at 1/180. 

The focus point is not on the hands, this is just a crop of the image. The issue I am having is undoubtedly camera shake. The subject is not moving. This is a problem I have noticed while using on camera flash with the camera and the increase in resolution is definitely to blame - I have no need for 60mp so I am considering downgrading to the M10-R or back to the M10. 

 

I'm just going to get an M10-R and test myself. thanks for the help(?) everyone 🤪

[DenverSteve]

My advice on your M11 photography. If some of your images are tack-sharp, then there's no problem with the camera. Therefore if half your images are out of focus - it's you and your technique.  From the images you posted, at 1/160 th sec. - everything should be tack-sharp.  I just finished looking through some of my shoots from the past 2 months and I have images as slow as 1/25th at f2.0 - handheld, without flash to lock in any exposure, - that are tack-sharp throughout the focal plane.  There is no inherent problem, or issue with the M11 so any failure to focus, or keep still, is operator error (assuming you're using a tack-sharp lens).  Even if your rangefinder was off (which is rare), at f4.0 you should demonstrate a solid, in focus, plane of focus, even if it was in front or behind your primary subject. 

If you have better success with another camera, use another camera.  If you are wanting to do professional work, I would suggest working, practicing and dedicating time to develop a solid foundation/platform from which to shoot your handheld photography.  Part of photography is not only learning to determine proper exposure, good composition, knowledge of lighting (controlling quality, intensity and direction) but, and maybe most importantly, learning a technique that allows for you to get to a point where focus issues are the rarity not commonplace.  There is no technical difference between photography with the M10 and M11.  Some people never get great, sharp, handheld photos - so they choose to use a tripod which, to me, should be part of every professional shoot. 

If you believe you are doing everything properly with your M11, and still getting soft images, have someone else, who knows what they're doing, take photos with your equipment to make sure it's not the equipment.  Once you eliminate other factors contributing to soft images, the rest is you.  Again at 1/160th of a second, your images should be sharp, with or without flash.

[Jeff S]

9 minutes ago, ryanlowry said:

sorry Jeff, didn't mean to ignore you... you mean distance from camera to subject? Over 5 years using m10 I never had camera shake as bad as I have had on m11. Many different distances, using on camera flash, external lighting etc. 

No, I mean screen magnification and/or print size and viewing distance.  There will be no difference in apparent blur under same conditions.  One can notice blur previously not apparent when using same shooting technique and circumstances,  yet viewing at higher equivalent magnification.

Jeff

[Flu]

Make sure your flash sync in the menu is set to START and not on END. It will help to freeze more of the frame touched by the light of the strobe.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Flu

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[DenverSteve]

32 minutes ago, ryanlowry said:

while we are having fun... maybe you can post similar examples crouched down in an uncomfortable position and lets see if you get the same results.... usually I don't have a chair to sit in while I shoot on set... 

While we're having fun......... Why are you crouching? Why don't you have a chair?, stool?, tabletop, props, large camera platform, tripod, monopod .... on your "set"?.  I use up to 30 strobes on a large-set lighting set up and I employ ladders, chairs, stools, assistants, carts, step-stools, knee-pads....to insure tack-sharp images.  Sometime it takes a week just to set equipment and prep for a one-day shoot.  However, crouching is never going to give you a solid platform from which to shoot.  One needs to have a solid, stable platform (body position) to contribute to a comfortable shooting position.  Maybe crouching behind a low-set tripod, to get a low shot.  Why do you choose not to use a tripod with ball-head to give you a more stable position?  Don't get me wrong, you don't have to on every shoot, in every situation but, being a professional means having the education, equipment, knowledge & technique to solve any logistical issues and guarantee every result the client wants.  I ask with all sincerity trying to help.  

Edited April 3, 2023 by DenverSteve

[ryanlowry]

5 minutes ago, DenverSteve said:

While we're having fun......... Why are you crouching? Why don't you have a chair?, stool?, tabletop, props, large camera platform, tripod, monopod .... on your "set"?.  I use up to 30 strobes on a large-set lighting set up and I employ ladders, chairs, stools, assistants, carts, step-stools, knee-pads....to insure tack-sharp images.  Sometime it takes a week just to set equipment and prep for a one-day shoot.  However, crouching is never going to give you a solid platform from which to shoot.  One needs to have a solid, stable platform (body position) to contribute to a comfortable shooting position.  Maybe crouching behind a low-set tripod, to get a low shot.  Why do you choose not to use a tripod with ball-head to give you a more stable position?  Don't get me wrong, you don't have to on every shoot, in every situation but, being a professional means having the education, equipment, knowledge & technique to solve any logistical issues and guarantee every result the client wants.  I ask with all sincerity trying to help.  

Thanks for your help Denversteve.