Frame Lines

[Guest tummydoc]

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Vinay, any person with a shred of common sense would have realised that Wilfredo was asking how HCB would have coped with similar frame lines in _his_ camera not Wilfredo's.

 

Have you considered therapy?

 

Stuntsworth, any person with a shred of intelligence would have realised that I understood quite clearly what he actually meant. Have you considered taking irony pills?

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[larry]

Hi Wifredo,

 

I've been compensating for the wonky framelines when I compose the shot, and it's become almost second nature. If Leica improves this in its next digital M, I'll have to deprogram myself. ;-)

 

Larry

[guywalder]

Incidentally, I was recently at a talk by a UK Magnum photographer (an M user for 40-50 years) and, for some odd reason, he got on to discuss using the M8. He said that he persevered for a few months with the M8 but had to give it up because he just couldn't get on with the inaccuracy of the framelines compared to what he had been used to.

 

was he unhappy in comparison with an M6/7?

my understanding is that the M3 framelines were 'optimised' for 1m, but all current Ms use 0.7m instead, both film and M8. I havnt noticed a difference, but the whole film processing leadtime means that I simply cant make a direct comparison with the instant feedback from the M8.

Or was he comparing the M8 to some other digital camera??

[wattsy]

was he unhappy in comparison with an M6/7?

 

Or was he comparing the M8 to some other digital camera??

 

The comparison was with film M cameras - presumably M6.

[elviskennedy]

I think that photographers, famous or not, who claim to never crop are talking silly-talk. Whether via an enlarger or a computer - we all crop. HCB is continually mis-quoted as having said that he never cropped. Review his most famous photograph (man jumping over puddle), which shows major cropping. And read here; News Photographer Web Extra: Cartier-Bresson's Impact On Photojournalism

 

I'm not suggesting laziness in photography, just less obsessiveness.

[stunsworth]

Stuntsworth, any person with a shred of intelligence would have realised that I understood quite clearly what he actually meant. Have you considered taking irony pills?

 

In the context of all your other smug, superior and sarcastic responses to posted messages it's quite likely that people would have misunderstood your intent.

 

Personally I don't think you were being ironic, you were just being your normal self.

[Kent10D]

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If I'm shooting quickly, I just let the camera find a shutter speed in aperture priority--or, I just look through the Leica finder if I also need to focus and don't have time to move to the "good" finder. When I have a bit more time, I may set exposure and focus and then go to the external finder. You get used to going back and forth and you always have an accurate finder at hand if you want it. If the shutter speed gets low while you are using the hot shoe finder, you can hear that.

 

Thanks for that, Walt.

 

I had forgotten to mention the focusing issue as well, but there's that too, of course. I should probably give it another chance until there's a more integrated solution because, like you, I find the innacuracy of the internal framelines to be a bit of a problem for composition. You can learn to compensate, but you have to learn to compensate in different ways for different lenses.

 

I hadn't thought of the "aural" aspect of shutter speed.

 

Thanks again.

[thrid]

This is a question for you Leica historians out there.

 

When were "automatic" framelines introduced to the M line?

 

I believe some of HCB's best work was done before then.

 

M3, 1954

 

But HCB did the vast majority of his work with a VIDOM viewfinder. He bought one of these very early in his career around 1930 and used it until the end. Bresson would set focus to 5 meters on the camera and finder, f8-16 and shoot away. When it got too dark he would go home or a nice restaurant.

 

Here's a picture.

 

http://photo.net/bboard-uploads/0095j7-19093684.jpg

 

I have one of these and it really is astonishingly accurate. For the 50mm there are even two notches, 1 meter and infinity.

[Guest tummydoc]

it's quite likely that people would have misunderstood your intent.

 

Perhaps they might not have thought my irony was clever, but I'm sure 99.9% here are intelligent enough to have recognised that I hadn't truly misunderstood. For all but one person in the remaining 0.1%--if indeed there was more than one to start with--I issued a succinct clairification.

 

Personally I don't think

 

Pardon the ruthless editing, but it does sum up your responses on this topic

[stunsworth]

Cheers Vinay, you never never disappoint.

 

But I am still struggling to see the irony in your comment of "Why would you expect HCB to have given a rat's arse about your camera?". I still see a sarcastic swipe, rather than an attempt at humour. It's often said that Americans don't 'get' irony. Apart from the fact that that's not necessarily true, I always assumed that the comment was referring to them not understanding it when they saw it, I never realised that it could mean that they could not understand irony when they were writing it.

 

Have a nice day!

[wilfredo]

M3, 1954

 

But HCB did the vast majority of his work with a VIDOM viewfinder. He bought one of these very early in his career around 1930 and used it until the end. Bresson would set focus to 5 meters on the camera and finder, f8-16 and shoot away. When it got too dark he would go home or a nice restaurant.

 

Here's a picture.

 

http://photo.net/bboard-uploads/0095j7-19093684.jpg

 

I have one of these and it really is astonishingly accurate. For the 50mm there are even two notches, 1 meter and infinity.

 

 

With this approach HCB didn't have to worry much about focusing just shooting, interesting trivia.

 

Cheers,

Wilfredo

Benitez-Rivera Photography

[guywalder]

hence the expression "F8 and be there"

[Guest tummydoc]

It's often said that Americans don't 'get' irony. Apart from the fact that that's not necessarily true, I always assumed that the comment was referring to them not understanding it when they saw it, I never realised that it could mean that they could not understand irony when they were writing it.

 

Having been born in India, raised in Canada, and educated in the UK, I'll defer the taking of offence at your ignorant generalisation, to the many highly-intelligent and erudite Americans on the forum.

[stunsworth]

Cheers Vinay. By the way, I think that last sentance scans better without the comma between 'generalisation' and 'to' - don't you agree? The comma seems to spoil things rather a lot.

[larry]

Having been born in India, raised in Canada, and educated in the UK, I'll defer the taking of offence at your ignorant generalisation, to the many highly-intelligent and erudite Americans on the forum.

 

Vinay,

 

Speaking as a highly intelligent and erudite American, it was transparently clear to me that Steve's comment was meant to be ironic. :-)

 

Larry

[Guest tummydoc]

Vinay,

 

Speaking as a highly intelligent and erudite American, it was transparently clear to me that Steve's comment was meant to be ironic. :-)

 

Larry

 

All of Steve's comments are transparent. Ironic, not so much.

[thrid]

With this approach HCB didn't have to worry much about focusing just shooting, interesting trivia.

 

Cheers,

Wilfredo

Benitez-Rivera Photography

 

Well, Bresson also famously said something along the lines, that sharpness was a bourgeois concept. ;-) He could have bought any lens he wanted (or Leica was willing to give him for free), but he stuck with the old collapsible Summicron, until he went to the big darkroom in the sky.

 

If you take a look at some of his prints you will notice that in many the point of focus is slightly off. Scale focusing. Apparently he also was his printers worst nightmare, because his exposures were sometime wildly off.

 

But the framing and timing is dead on and when viewed from 4 ft away that's all that counts. ;-)

[JGW]

I use auxilliary finders (mostly the Voiglander metal, round ones) for all lenses on the M8, all the time. They are quite accurate (e.g. a 35 finder for the 28 lens). A pity a camera like this requires this, but the finders are absolutely necessary to me. I do not want to "imagine" the edges, I want to see them.

 

Walt

 

Walt,

Have you used a Voiglander 50 finder with 35mm lenses by any chance, and if so was it more accurate than the M8 built in frames for this lens? As you'll know, it will need to be wider than the M8 frames for the 35, which might be unlikely. I once did a comparison test with my M3 and I'm sure the 50mm frames were about the same as the 35mm frames in the M8.

 

 

Incidentally, I was recently at a talk by a UK Magnum photographer (an M user for 40-50 years) and, for some odd reason, he got on to discuss using the M8. He said that he persevered for a few months with the M8 but had to give it up because he just couldn't get on with the inaccuracy of the framelines compared to what he had been used to.

 

I can imagine David Hurn rejecting the M8 because of the diabolical framing of this camera. I can remember him meticulously testing lenses on his M6 by photographing test charts pinned to a wall when I was a student in the 80s. (he ran the course I did) I remember he had a motor on that camera so he wasn't too bothered about extra noise. I'm not sure whether the M motor drive is as noisy as the M8, but this, together with the bad framing is why I too have stopped using this camera until -if they ever do- Leica supply framelines set for middle distance shooting @ 1 metre. How Leica could disregard their M rangefinder heritage by releasing this camera in this state I'll never understand.

 

JGW.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[stunsworth]

Well, Bresson also famously said something along the lines, that sharpness was a bourgeois concept. ;-)

 

And he as right <grin>