Trading M10R Black Paint for SL2-S — Convince me otherwise (or not!)

[JamieDumont]

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So, I posted something very similar to Reddit earlier in the week but thought that I'd post it here too with a few updates for some alternate opinions.

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I was lucky enough to get hold of brand new black paint M10R in August last year and have been using as my main working camera since. I think this particular one must have been one of the early ones that had a sticking shutter due to the paint finish, and was returned to Wetzlar to be refinished. A few came out every couple of months last year and I believe this was the last.

I've been using it for all kinds of photography, but my main use is documentary style "behind the scenes" stories. By virtue of that I've pushed the M outside what I think it's best at. Shoots of aerial dancers 50m up in a dark cathedral, food photography in underground fine dining restaurants, dimly lit breweries and ultra marathons in all weathers and around the clock. There's a theme: low light and hard conditions. I get to choose my projects, but the past 6 months hasn't lent itself to the M.

I bought the M10R because it was black paint, special and supposed to "last me a lifetime" — as much as a digital can at least, alongside the new 35mm Summilux (close focus). It pairs nicely with the M2 that I fell in love with and (re)started my career in photography, and I get to share lenses in a compact little setup.

The problem is that my eyesight is an issue, making focus hard and I'm obviously pushing the M into realms where an SL2-S would be better, even with M lenses. I'd benefit from the weather sealing, EVF, option of AF when it would help and better battery life. The M10R has been frustrating in that regard lately because every shoot has been live view heavy which just sucks the battery, or maybe I've been relying on it as my confidence in RF has waned. For reference, I'm well versed with rangefinders and didn't have any of the focussing issues that I'm currently experiencing with an M10 less than a year ago. My vision has really fallen off a cliff quickly!

Sidenote: The close focus ability of the 35 has got me out of some sticky situations, but I can't help feel that encouraging focus beyond the rangefinder and forcing me to switch back and forth to live view actually compromises the experience.

It's an achingly pretty camera, and when I nail the shot it sings, but I can't help but feel I'm fighting more of an uphill battle than is sensible. It also doesn't make sense to have so much value tied up in a camera that isn't delivering the goods on the regular.

Today, I've received an SL2-S with 35 APO and an M-L adapter as part of a test drive for 48 hours and have played with it this evening before giving it a proper workout over the weekend. My early thoughts are that it's very nice and indeed a fantastic setup. Tethered to Capture One it's brain-dead simple for portraiture or product photos (might be doing more of that?). But it feels at the opposite end of every axis when compared to the M10R that it's feels impossible to compare them, unfair even.

My current position is that an SL2-S would obviously be very useful to my work, but I can't imagine being happy with a straight trade. I'll regret it I'm sure. Surprisingly if I were to trade, I would probably also trade the 35 'Lux for the 35 SL-APO as it just works so much better on the SL2-S than the Lux. I expected it to truly sing when focussed to critical focus with the EVF, but the 35 APO takes the day. That would leave me with an M2 and a Voigtlander 35 Color-Skopar and an SL2-S with 35 APO, with maybe enough budget to replace the Voigtlander with an older 35mm Summicron (v4?). Thoughts?

Valuations that I've had back so far for the M10R and 35 Lux have been offensively low, so the money might make this show a non-starter.

I'm sure you can tell that I'm conflicted. I'd be interested in any opinions that others have, even if it adds to my confusion! 🤣

Edited March 10, 2023 by JamieDumont

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[Olaf_ZG]

The SL is so more versatile… long lenses, m-lenses, af, you name it. Yet a M is a M. They are complimentary…

[LeicaR10]

JamieDumont,  You have a challenge that is for certain.  A number of well meaning photographers will offer you advice, myself included, but at the end of the day, it will be your decision alone of what works best for you.  As you know the M10-R with M lenses is simply superb.  The issue for you is eye sight, perhaps deminished in dark areas using the rangefinder.  That said, the EVF would be a viable solution and less expensive route.  The EVF has a diable diopter and that helps with both eye sight correction and certainly dark areas.  The SL2-S is a very good camera and works superbly with M lenses.  Not surprising.  The trade-in value of both your M10-R and 35 Lux is going to fetch you a lower trade value due to several factors for dealers, less demand, inflation, slowing economy and simply people not buying a lot of camera gear.  Plus there may be an excess of 35 Lux lenses and that will lower the used prices dealers can resell the lens.  You could try selling both camera and lens yourself on eBay, etc., only I think you will regret selling what I consider IMO, the last and best M camera.  You might seriously consider the M EVF first, or simply buy a previously owned SL2-S and have both your M and a SL2-S.  Last, at least you have choices, my suggestion(s); first try the EVF, second buy a used SL2-S, third and certainly an option, buy the EVF keep the M10-R and pick up a mint SL2-S.  Good luck with your decision.  r/ Mark

PS...Welcome to the forum.

Edited March 10, 2023 by LeicaR10

[JamieDumont]

Thank you both for your comments.

27 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Yet a M is a M

This is pretty much the root of it all...

9 minutes ago, LeicaR10 said:

the EVF would be a viable solution and less expensive route.

You're not the first person to recommend the EVF. I've always assumed that it wasn't worth the hassle as it compromised battery life severely and compares poorly to most other EVFs. I may have to shelve my assumptions and try one out next time I get the chance.

 

10 minutes ago, LeicaR10 said:

a lower trade value due to several factors for dealers, less demand, inflation, slowing economy and simply people not buying a lot of camera gear.

I had wondered this after my first few valuations came back. The market definitely seems to have "settled" for lack of a better term. Many of the Leica dealers that I use have far more used stock than normal so I suspect you are right.

---

I've accepted the fact that they are both exceptional cameras and both have their merits in very different arenas. That makes them impossible to compare. As you said Olaf, they are complimentary.

Can I see myself owning an SL2-S (or some future iteration)? Yes, absolutely. Can I see myself owning one at the cost of trading away the M10R? That's the harder question, with the answer probably rounding out to "No".  It'll be interesting to see if my feelings have changed by the time I'm sending the SL2-S back on Monday.

 

[LeicaR10]

Jamie Dumont,  The EVF and even a spare battery or two would be a logical way to go for the M10-R.  You might be surprised at how useful the EVF, especially the new version will be in low light.  IMO, a EVF and batteries are cheap in relative terms compared to buying a $4K body.  There is a saying that many Leica M photographers who been around a while, like myself, "Never sell a Leica lens"...IMO, sage advice from photographers who have bought, sold only to rebuy what they sold..myself included.  If you are wanting a M 35 Apo Summicron, you will find it slighter higher in contrast than your 35 Lux, but nearly equal in image quality at higher f/stops from f/2.8 onwards.  Check out this link if you wish to see the comparisons.  Just more choices.  r/ Mark

Try:  

 

[JamieDumont]

12 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

Why not just choose randomly.

It gave me back "yes" which I didn't like...so there's my answer! 🤣

5 minutes ago, LeicaR10 said:

If you are wanting a M 35 Apo Summicron,

Ah...I was referring to trading the M 35 Lux for the SL 35mm APO if I did swap the bodies. A decision that would — once again — be a touch heart wrenching.

I think your (and many others) advice to not trade is sound. Now just to convince the rest of my brain!

[LeicaR10]

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Jamie Dumont,  Glad you reached a excellent decision for yourself.  Your wallet will be thanking you too.  Congratulations!  r/ Mark

PS...You might have a touch of GAS...Gear Acquisition Syndrome.  No cure for that, I've been to GAS rehab 3 times...no cure, just realized I needed discipline and deciding between needing and wanting...there is a difference.  I had to ultimately chose "needing" and both my wallet and AMEX card sighed in relief.

Edited March 10, 2023 by LeicaR10

[Herr Barnack]

@JamieDumont +1 on @LeicaR10's post. 

And from your posts -

Quote

...I can't imagine being happy with a straight trade. I'll regret it I'm sure...

...Can I see myself owning one at the cost of trading away the M10R? That's the harder question, with the answer probably rounding out to "No...

The above tells me that if you trade away your M2, M10-R and lenses for the SL2-S, you will come to regret it and most likely in short order.  Bottom line:  Don't do it.  Find another way to acquire the SL2-S. 

This is for your photography business; what about getting a business loan that will cover the cost of the SL2-S and the lenses you would need for it?  What about making due with the M10-R and saving up for the SL2-S as you go along?  What about saving up 50% of the cost and them getting a business loan to cover the other 50%?  What about taking on more work in the short term to raise more cash for the SL2-S purchase?  Do you have a second car you could sell off to help fund the purchase?  There are more than one way to skin a cat, as the old adage says.

It's your call, but I would give this decision some time, say a month or so.  Think it through.  Resourcefulness in figuring out how to acquire the SL2-S while keeping your M2 and M10-R are key.

[Jeff S]

31 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

The above tells me that if you trade away your M2, M10-R and lenses for the SL2-S, you will come to regret it and most likely in short order.  

 

He didn’t mention selling the M2.

My suggestion to the OP is to first address any potential uncorrected eyesight issues, via glasses, diopter or some combination. And to also be sure that the camera and lenses are properly calibrated.  A sudden drop in viewing acuity deserves attention, whether camera related or otherwise.

Jeff

[JamieDumont]

1 hour ago, LeicaR10 said:

You might have a touch of GAS

Might?!?! 🤣

58 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

There are more than one way to skin a cat, as the old adage says.

Indeed, and I think with some patience there's a few ways I could get into the SL system without causing myself mischief.

 

20 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

first address any potential uncorrected eyesight issues

I have glasses currently that do a pretty good job of correcting my vision — beyond constantly needing cleaning. I used to wear glasses and contacts as a teenager then had laser surgery for military service (which I then decided against). My vision went from a -4.75 prescription in both eyes with mild astigmatism to perfect (far exceeding 20:20). It's degraded slowly over the past ~6 years but recently came to a head where I needed glasses for driving, watching TV, low light and now evidently for taking pictures. It's likely a mixture of an unstable prescription at the time of surgery and the myopia epidemic sweeping the world (last 10 years writing software instead of playing soldiers).

I can use the rangefinder equally well with and without glasses, I just make tradeoffs. With glasses my framing is compromised (can't see edge of 35mm framelines) but I get a touch more contrast and sharpness on the focus patch. I decide whether to wear glasses based on how much I'm stopping down at a given moment.

Contacts are a no-go thanks to surgery. Fairly common apparently. My current prescription is fairly mild (-1 in dominant left eye and -0.75 in right) but with some astigmatism which made the contacts particularly bad.

I'm going to the opticians quite frequently and have had more advanced scans done to check whether there is anything more sinister at play. If things stay stable then I may visit the surgeon again, if only for the incredibly detailed assessment they do.

Edited March 10, 2023 by JamieDumont
Spelling

[Jeff S]

49 minutes ago, JamieDumont said:

I have glasses currently that do a pretty good job of correcting my vision — beyond constantly needing cleaning. I used to wear glasses and contacts as a teenager then had laser surgery for military service (which I then decided against). My vision went from a -4.75 prescription in both eyes with mild astigmatism to perfect (far exceeding 20:20). It's degraded slowly over the past ~6 years but recently came to a head where I needed glasses for driving, watching TV, low light and now evidently for taking pictures. It's likely a mixture of an unstable prescription at the time of surgery and the myopia epidemic sweeping the world (last 10 years writing software instead of playing soldiers).

I can use the rangefinder equally well with and without glasses, I just make tradeoffs. With glasses my framing is compromised (can't see edge of 35mm framelines) but I get a touch more contrast and sharpness on the focus patch. I decide whether to wear glasses based on how much I'm stopping down at a given moment.

Contacts are a no-go thanks to surgery. Fairly common apparently. My current prescription is fairly mild (-1 in dominant left eye and -0.75 in right) but with some astigmatism which made the contacts particularly bad.

I'm going to the opticians quite frequently and have had more advanced scans done to check whether there is anything more sinister at play. If things stay stable then I may visit the surgeon again, if only for the incredibly detailed assessment they do.

I wear glasses to correct for astigmatism and distance (and sunlight sensitivity).  But, with aging eyes, I only later added a +.5 diopter to supplement my glasses.  I took my camera to my local optician and, with glasses on, experimented with trial diopters over the VF.  The small correction better optimized viewing and focusing.  

Couldn’t hurt to experiment; better than just going by the math IMO.

Jeff

 

[Jeff S]

FWIW, I also use M (M10-R, M10M and M9M) and SL (SL2) cameras.  My M lenses  (28/35/50) stay on the M bodies, and the SL2, with zooms, serve complementary needs and shooting experiences.  For me, the M is an RF device; don’t own or intend to use an accessory EVF.  I make accommodations to maintain the RF experience.  If/when vision issues no longer provide enjoyment, I’ll move on to other systems.  Hopefully that’s not any time soon.  

Just my approach; good luck with yours.

Jeff

 

[Kiwimac]

3 hours ago, JamieDumont said:

So, I posted something very similar to Reddit earlier in the week but thought that I'd post it here too with a few updates for some alternate opinions.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I was lucky enough to get hold of brand new black paint M10R in August last year and have been using as my main working camera since. I think this particular one must have been one of the early ones that had a sticking shutter due to the paint finish, and was returned to Wetzlar to be refinished. A few came out every couple of months last year and I believe this was the last.

I've been using it for all kinds of photography, but my main use is documentary style "behind the scenes" stories. By virtue of that I've pushed the M outside what I think it's best at. Shoots of aerial dancers 50m up in a dark cathedral, food photography in underground fine dining restaurants, dimly lit breweries and ultra marathons in all weathers and around the clock. There's a theme: low light and hard conditions. I get to choose my projects, but the past 6 months hasn't lent itself to the M.

I bought the M10R because it was black paint, special and supposed to "last me a lifetime" — as much as a digital can at least, alongside the new 35mm Summilux (close focus). It pairs nicely with the M2 that I fell in love with and (re)started my career in photography, and I get to share lenses in a compact little setup.

The problem is that my eyesight is an issue, making focus hard and I'm obviously pushing the M into realms where an SL2-S would be better, even with M lenses. I'd benefit from the weather sealing, EVF, option of AF when it would help and better battery life. The M10R has been frustrating in that regard lately because every shoot has been live view heavy which just sucks the battery, or maybe I've been relying on it as my confidence in RF has waned. For reference, I'm well versed with rangefinders and didn't have any of the focussing issues that I'm currently experiencing with an M10 less than a year ago. My vision has really fallen off a cliff quickly!

Sidenote: The close focus ability of the 35 has got me out of some sticky situations, but I can't help feel that encouraging focus beyond the rangefinder and forcing me to switch back and forth to live view actually compromises the experience.

It's an achingly pretty camera, and when I nail the shot it sings, but I can't help but feel I'm fighting more of an uphill battle than is sensible. It also doesn't make sense to have so much value tied up in a camera that isn't delivering the goods on the regular.

Today, I've received an SL2-S with 35 APO and an M-L adapter as part of a test drive for 48 hours and have played with it this evening before giving it a proper workout over the weekend. My early thoughts are that it's very nice and indeed a fantastic setup. Tethered to Capture One it's brain-dead simple for portraiture or product photos (might be doing more of that?). But it feels at the opposite end of every axis when compared to the M10R that it's feels impossible to compare them, unfair even.

My current position is that an SL2-S would obviously be very useful to my work, but I can't imagine being happy with a straight trade. I'll regret it I'm sure. Surprisingly if I were to trade, I would probably also trade the 35 'Lux for the 35 SL-APO as it just works so much better on the SL2-S than the Lux. I expected it to truly sing when focussed to critical focus with the EVF, but the 35 APO takes the day. That would leave me with an M2 and a Voigtlander 35 Color-Skopar and an SL2-S with 35 APO, with maybe enough budget to replace the Voigtlander with an older 35mm Summicron (v4?). Thoughts?

Valuations that I've had back so far for the M10R and 35 Lux have been offensively low, so the money might make this show a non-starter.

I'm sure you can tell that I'm conflicted. I'd be interested in any opinions that others have, even if it adds to my confusion! 🤣

If you can’t afford both (And few of us can!) and you need to make money, the tool that does the best job is always the answer. 
 

I’d say the SL2-S fits your needs better. 

Alternatively rent one for specific jobs and pass the cost in to the clients as expenses. 

[rich_]

It reads like the EVF would suit far better for deteriorating eyesight. 
Leica Ms are great but if one can’t use rangefinders satisfactorily due to medical limitations then it’s very frustrating. 
The used prices are quite low for sls2 as they take into account the instant discount vouchers that Leica offered in the models and that it’s perhaps more niche for a random purchaser to buy lower mp cam. 
The resale for m10 is low in shops so yes may be worth scoping out someone to swap with for $ or private sale if it’s difficult to own both temporarily. 

[Stuart Richardson]

One thing I would submit: If you do decide to sell the M10R and get an SL2S, I would advise you to consider selling directly first, or at least selling on consignment. In my experience dealers typically offer substantially less as a trade in than what you can get yourself. This is of course reasonable, as they have to make money on the sale, otherwise there is no point in them doing it. But if the money is tight, you are going to get substantially more money out of a private sale than a trade in. Furthermore, you should not be afraid of used Leica gear, especially if it is sold by a reputable dealer. Leica cameras are quite solidly built and the majority of the user base are amateurs who tend to treat the cameras rather lovingly. I almost always buy used if I can, unless I am in a situation where reclaiming the VAT is cheaper than the used value.

All this said, at least for my business, I got out of the M digital system as the SL cameras better serve my needs. The M digital cameras are lovely, but they are not as universally capable, and the prices have gone through the roof in the last two generations...not just of the bodies, but also of the lenses. The beauty of the L mount is that you have access to the most optically perfect lenses Leica has ever made in the SL summicrons, as well as myriad inexpensive yet fantastic lenses made by Sigma and Panasonic. The downside to the SL system is that it is substantially heavier and bigger, and does not have the immediacy of the optical viewfinder and rangefinder in the M. But if you cannot reliably focus anymore, it seems kind of Sisyphean to keep using an M camera.

[gotium]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

But if you cannot reliably focus anymore, it seems kind of Sisyphean to keep using an M camera.

Exactly!

Yet for some reason that is just what some of us do, myself included. 

I also tried SL2/SL2-S with M lenses, but I found it too big, too big, and too big. And I guess too heavy as well. I didn't find focusing any better than with a rangefinder either, without auto-aperture and with the zoomed view I would lose both focus and composition. 

[gotium]

[duplicate, error]

Edited March 11, 2023 by gotium

[trickness]

Used SL2-S are going for about $3300 USD. As a straight trade with a BP M10-R, you're getting hosed.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Jeff S]

Leica Miami currently has 2 used M10-R Black Paint cameras for sale , both with extra accessories and remaining Leica warranties (1 year and 2 year).

They also offer 80% of market value on trades, so if someone had traded in either one of these cameras, the seller would have received roughly $7k toward new purchase.

Jeff

Edited March 11, 2023 by Jeff S

[Stuart Richardson]

2 hours ago, gotium said:

Exactly!

Yet for some reason that is just what some of us do, myself included. 

I also tried SL2/SL2-S with M lenses, but I found it too big, too big, and too big. And I guess too heavy as well. I didn't find focusing any better than with a rangefinder either, without auto-aperture and with the zoomed view I would lose both focus and composition. 

I do tend to agree that M lenses are not my preferred way to work on the SL cameras. I think M cameras do a better job with M lenses unless you are doing slow, considered work where it is easy to focus and compose with some leisure. The focus is more accurate in the SL cameras, but I agree that if you enlarge the screen to focus, you lose the overall composition. I do like how panasonic implements this, where there is a box in the middle of the screen with the magnified area, but you can still see the frame edges. I think that works better, but still not as good as an M. In terms of lenses, I found that the Sigma DG DN lenses are in a lot of cases even sharper than M lenses, other than the most recent vintage. At least this was the case in comparing the 24mm 3.5 to the 21mm Super Elmar...the former being a 550 dollar lens, which at least in my test was sharper edge to edge than the 3500 dollar Leica version. The Leica was crisper in the center, however. I also found the 35mm f2 was quite close to the 35mm Summilux ASPH FLE, though it is not as good at f2. The 105mm Sigma macro is as sharp as my 90mm APO Summicron M, and has similarly negligible color fringing. It is also sharper close up and focuses to 1 to 1 as a macro lens...the downside is the larger size, though it is not that heavy (300g heavier). In any case, the crop of lenses on L mount seems to range from "surprisingly good for the price" to "best lens of its focal length ever made". I have not yet found a bad lens. I am not fond of the Sigma 45mm, but it is, all told, still a good lens. 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Stuart Richardson