Thoughts on the Summarits focal lengths

[johnastovall]

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I've been looking at the forth coming Summarits and am struck by the fact that for the M8 they seem to be on the long side.

 

In the three weeks of shooting my m8 I find myself going more to the CV 28 (fov of 37) and wishing for a 24. The 90, 75, 50, 35 field seems to be more in keeping with classic full frame lengths rather than the prefered (at least by me) for the cropped M8 sensor.

 

Does anyone think in a few years we may see some wider Summarits?

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[sean_reid]

I've been looking at the forth coming Summarits and am struck by the fact that for the M8 they seem to be on the long side.

 

In the three weeks of shooting my m8 I mind myself going more to the CV 28 (fov of 37) and wishing for a 24. The 90, 75, 50, 35 field seems to be more in keeping with classic full frame lengths rather than the prefered (at least by me) for the cropped M8 sensor.

 

Does anyone think in a few years we may see some wider Summarits?

 

Yes, I do.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[gwelland]

I think that a new set of wider lenses has to be inevitable. As you mention, the cropped sensor effectively leaves a hole as far as 'affordable' lenses is concerned beyond 28mm (effectively 37).

 

With Zeiss's products in this range (18 & 21) and the affordable CV offerings, you'd pretty much think that Leica has to produce something to compete. The WATE and 21 & 24 Elmarits are all premium products at 3x++ the cost of the competition.

[c6gowin]

Does anyone think in a few years we may see some wider Summarits?

 

 

Who knows, maybe in a few years we could see a full frame digital M. Disclaimer: This statement is not meant as rumor or fact - just another possibility for the future.

 

Affordable Leica wide angles lenses seem like the most reasonable solution and I hope they are working on it. As Graham pointed out, Zeiss and C/V already offer them.

 

Mark Gowin

[Shootist]

Unless sensor technology changes greatly I doubt there will ever be a FF M digital. The distance between mount and sensor is just to short.

The 28mm FL is covered by the Elmarit ASPH. So you have 5 lenses in the lower price range.

I would still like to see a 18/2.8 lens from Leica even if it was for digital only.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

If leica is not working on a extreme wide angle at this very minute than there missing a HUGE part of the market and to let CV 12 and 15mm walk all over you because you don't have something similiar than there really blowing it. That is my take and exactly what i told leica numerous times. I hoped they listened and soon

[c6gowin]

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Ed, I agree you with about the FF M. My comment was more about us not knowing what the future bring.

 

I rationalized my purchase of the WATE as the equivalent of getting 3 affordable Leica wide angle lenses in one - 16mm/f4, 18mm/f4, and 21mm/f4. The old WATE price works out to a little less than cost of 3 Summarits. That equation is a little different now with the price increase of the WATE. It would have been nice to be able to buy just one 'affordable' Leica wide angle rather than buying the equivalent 3 at the same time.

 

There is a market for both affordable (slow) and exotic (fast) wide angle Leica lenses.

[Shootist]

You are right about the WATE. At the old cost I would of bought one by now (If I could of found one) but at the new price I'd rather have a 18/2.8 FFL.

 

You never know where the technology will go and I'm sure it will change in the years to come (and not just more MP).

 

Like some type of curved sensor similar to film.

[robsteve]

 

Does anyone think in a few years we may see some wider Summarits?

 

 

Probably not Summarits in wider angles since f2.5 is pretty fast for 28mm and wider. Keeping with the less expensive theme, maybe the wider lenses will be f3.4 of f4 designs. What whould that make them Elmars?

[michael_b_elmer]

If leica is not working on a extreme wide angle at this very minute than there missing a HUGE part of the market and to let CV 12 and 15mm walk all over you because you don't have something similiar than there really blowing it. That is my take and exactly what i told leica numerous times. I hoped they listened and soon

So Guy, which focal length do you think would be the most profitable for Leica?

 

Logical argumentation might take the Universal Viewfinder (socalled Frankenfinder) as a starting point. It covers the following focal lengths: 16, 18, 21, 24 and 28.Taking into account the crop factor of 1.33, Leica for the M8 covers the 21, 24 and 28 mm focal lengths, but have no lenses covering 16 and 18 mm on the M8, ie. lenses of a nominal focal length of 12 and 14 mm (as they would be on a M6).

 

Could Leica surprise us all with a M-12/2.8 or perhaps 3.4?

[marknorton]

A 12mm lens on the M8 would work with the 16mm setting on the Frankenfinder but if you look at what a 15mm f2.8 involves in terms of size and cost from Zeiss, I think even f4 is more likely, as in WATE, fix the focal length and widen it a tad.

 

I have a Nikon - M mount on order from Stephen Gandy, and I'm looking forward to trying out my Nikon 14mm f2.8 on the camera which will work with 18mm on the finder. The lens is huge though.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

My bet would be a 12mm 3.5 since they can use the existing finders and the WATE is out there at 16mm. price 1800.00.

 

I think we would be better served though with a 14mm, seems like a better focal length almost 19mm on FF

 

 

My wild guess but I would bet money that they are working on something and that is NOT inside info. On that front not even a mice is squeaking so if you hear anything from a dealer he is BS' ing you. You can't get a drop of info from Leica right now. It's a zip locked bag on that front. But i take the silence as very positive for us

[luigi bertolotti]

Guy, I agree with you about the 14 mm as a predictable focal from Leica: it is half of 28 (that, BTW, is well covered by the current Asph in the "Summarit's trend"), it fits well in the line 14-21-28, and it avoids too direct comparision with the CV15. I would like it is an honest f4 or even 4,5 with no stellar cost and no monstrous VF... and a brand name like "Super W Elmar"; let's wait and see...

[michael_b_elmer]

A 12mm lens on the M8 would work with the 16mm setting on the Frankenfinder but if you look at what a 15mm f2.8 involves in terms of size and cost from Zeiss, I think even f4 is more likely, as in WATE, fix the focal length and widen it a tad.

 

I have a Nikon - M mount on order from Stephen Gandy, and I'm looking forward to trying out my Nikon 14mm f2.8 on the camera which will work with 18mm on the finder. The lens is huge though.

My wild guess (dream?) is an Elmarit-M 2.8/14 Asph and a Super-Elmar-M 3.4/12 Asph.

[lars_bergquist]

There will very probably be a prime super wide angle lens. It will I think be a 16mm Elmar (speed in the f:4 class). But no wider Summarit lenses. Look here:

 

• 1:2.8 Elmarit 28mm ASPH — 1:2.5 Summarit 28mm

• 1:2.8 Elmarit 24mm ASPH — 1:2.5 Summarit 24mm

• 1:2.8 Elmarit 21mm ASPH — 1:2.5 Summarit 21mm

 

A marketing as well as an engineering absurdity. Remember, 'Summarit' from now on means '1:2.5' just as 'Elmarit' means '1:2.8' and 'Summicron' means '1:2'. Will Leica scrap a 28mm lens which has just been introduced, and is so much in demand that it is nearly impossible to find one?

 

And high speed super-wide lenses are puerile wet dreams. They are not practical.

 

The old man from the Age of Standard Lenses

[carstenw]

I agree with Lars. Additionally, if we are looking for super-wides from Leica, they will clearly cover the full frame, and will have to follow the laws of physics and optics, ie. we can't expect much more compact or cheap lenses than what we have seen so far. The 12/3.4 is a long shot, and would have to be around the size of the Zeiss 15/2.8, if not larger.

 

Furthermore, Leica's design philosophy leans toward the minimal, whereas Zeiss thinks nothing of throwing 11 elements in 9 groups into a prime, to achieve something difficult. The WATE is an optical marvel, but look at the price! I expect that if we see a reasonably priced 15mm from Leica, it will be f/4, and if a 12mm then f/5.6. That is the only way the prices and sizes will be manageable. If they do a 15/2.8 or a 12/4, then expect to see one or two aspherical elements, and sizes and prices to match. Think WATE-level prices.

 

In the between level, from 21-28 inclusive, maybe also 18, I expect that we will see f/4 lenses, like the Voigtländer ones, except sharper and a little larger (and a lot more expensive; more on Zeiss level): Elmars. For the 21 and 24 it is even possible that there will be a mid-level Elmar similar to the 50 Cron in price, and then an f/4.5 "budget" lens. The name might be Elmax or Hektor. I don't think they would reuse Super-Angulon or another range, since it doesn't fit in the single name, single aperture philosophy. They could use Angulon, but since it implies wide lenses rather than a specific aperture, I also don't think so. There is history for Hektor in the f/4.5 range (but only at the long end).

[hankg]

For the sort of photography usually associated with Leica the fast 21-35 focal lengths have replaced the old 50/90 combo. That creates a problem with the M8 cropped sensor that can be solved by either a full frame sensor or cropped sensor digital only lenses.

 

28/1.4 , 24/2 or 21/2 if they cover 24x36 would be absurd in both size and price. To keep the price point in the Summarit price range and the performance up to Leica standards you would probably be looking at a 21/3.5 and a 16/4.5.

[garyvot]

Honestly, given how Leica's resources must be severely strained in different directions (figuring out what do to with the R line, for example), I think the WATE is 'the' superwide solution for the M from Leica for a while...

 

Assuming (admittedly, this is a big assumption) that a full frame RF sensor can be created, a future Leica M is sure to use it, and the 1.33x format will likely fade away or only be offered an entry-level product. If this is Leica's roadmap for the M series, I'm not Leica would devote energy into designing WA lenses that would become "super exotics" on full frame.

 

But, I could be wrong....

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[hankg]

Assuming (admittedly, this is a big assumption) that a full frame RF sensor can be created, a future Leica M is sure to use it, and the 1.33x format will likely fade away or only be offered an entry-level product. If this is Leica's roadmap for the M series, I'm not Leica would devote energy into designing WA lenses that would become "super exotics" on full frame.

 

But, I could be wrong....

 

It would seem Leica is assuming full frame in the future as they have said a definite no to digital only lenses. Once the digital M is full frame the lens line up looks much more balanced without any additions.

[wparsonsgisnet]

While we have heard them discuss full frame (or perhaps larger than full frame, depending on your interpretation of 3rd-hand info) for the R family, had anyone heard them say anything about the M-family?

 

For a ff sensor in the Mx, the cyan-drift (thank you Sean) is correctible in software with a color twist, but the vignetting has to be corrected with a gain setting and that creates apparent noise.

 

I'm as skeptical about FF-Mx as others above are about a nice 12 or 14 mm f2.0 lens. That's where my money will go. These guys know how to do this. Does anyone think they'd have trouble selling a $3,500-plus lens like this?