SL3 Rumors

[PeterBoyadjian]

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https://www.gophotonics.com/products/cmos-image-sensors/gpixel-inc-/21-223-gcine4349

Maybe just maybe 

[Leicaflex]

vor 55 Minuten schrieb PeterBoyadjian:

https://www.gophotonics.com/products/cmos-image-sensors/gpixel-inc-/21-223-gcine4349

Maybe just maybe 

49MP – would fit the latest rumors for the next Lumix S1 series camera. Isn‘t G-Pixel a company that is connected to the old Panasonic semiconductor businesses.

I think this would be a perfect match for the next SL3 and S1 II.

[PeterBoyadjian]

I’ll take 49mp with better lowlight and dr over 61mp. 

[Stuart Richardson]

I was just hoping we would get an improved Panasonic sensor rather than the 60mp one. Even though I am a resolution guy, with 47mp and multishot, additional resoultion is more nice to have than necessary. I would not want to go down in resolution, but the same crisp detail and excellent color in the SL2 plus extra DR and ISO would be a nice improvement. Either that or give me a larger boost in resolution to really set it apart…up to 70-100mp. 

[Jeff S]

12 hours ago, BernardC said:

Every system has their USPs. Leica's are lenses, UX, and IQ. 

I think that the quality of the viewing system - how one sees the subject- is an important, and underrated, USP.  The SL had the best EVF when it finally appeared, and even today remains competitive.  The S system arguably provides the top optical viewing system.  And of course there’s no match for the M’s RF/VF and its “window to the world.” 
 

Jeff

[Planetwide]

Does that sensor have phase detect pixels?

[Geoff C. Bassett]

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On 11/9/2023 at 10:53 AM, PeterBoyadjian said:

https://www.gophotonics.com/products/cmos-image-sensors/gpixel-inc-/21-223-gcine4349

Maybe just maybe 

Based on the specs this would be the ideal sensor that I would love to see in the SL3 if it could be used. Would be awesome to have an extended dynamic range option at a lower FPS and the speed seems to be great for video work as well. Ticks every single box for me.

[whowell]

On 11/9/2023 at 7:40 AM, Simone_DF said:

I worked 12 years for a big IT / consumer electronic company. Depending on the company and your product, it can very easily take longer than 18 months even with continuous design cycles. Remember, every little change somewhere can cause havoc somewhere else. The M11 woes are the perfect example of that. Proper testing mitigates that, but proper testing takes time. You also need to take into account production and logistic time for an item with a market of millions of units.

Sure, Sony may have tweaked a thing or three after seeing the SL, but I bet that the core concept of the camera, together with production plans and overall roadmap, was developed before the SL timeframe. 

I totally agree with your observations…

In a recent conversation with a leica rep, I learned a little about their four year release schedule.  Having a company with an engineering roadmap like that gives much needed time constraints to develop a clockwork like approach to design/development.  I wonder if they have multiple design teams focusing on specific lines, like the m design team and the SL design team… or if it’s one team that concentrated on one camera at a time.

Either way… I don’t agree with people who say Leica cameras are strictly for rich/hipster types… their user interface is easily the best in the world, and that’s not just a menu system.  Their camera bodies don’t have a million words written on them… in fact… just three words on the body of the sl2s or cl… play, function, and menu…. That’s not just minimalist for looks.. that’s an intentional design choice that allows the user to fully focus on using the camera as a tool.

On a shoot yesterday I handed off the sl2s (with voigtlander 35 1.2 m mount lens adapted) to a new intern who normally shoots a Pentax dslr.  I didn’t tell her anything about the camera.  Within 30 seconds she figured out how to control the exposure triangle, and shot the entire 4 hour research session.  She handed over the camera afterwards and said “that is the best camera I’ve ever used.”.

I really think Leica is missing the mark by not targeting the college educational market.  Leica cameras allow photographers to instantly be fully in control… 

I shoot digital canon, Sony, Nikon, Fujifilm, Hasselblad, and Panasonic stills cameras on a regular basis for work… so I’m not necessarily a die hard proponent to any of the companies… each tool has their place in the market and I’m not knocking any of them…. But…. The only camera I can hand off to a semi-experienced intern with little to no instruction of operation is the Leica sl2s…

that's a pretty powerful testimony to their design philosophy.

[Simone_DF]

40 minutes ago, whowell said:

In a recent conversation with a leica rep, I learned a little about their four year release schedule.  Having a company with an engineering roadmap like that gives much needed time constraints to develop a clockwork like approach to design/development.  I wonder if they have multiple design teams focusing on specific lines, like the m design team and the SL design team… or if it’s one team that concentrated on one camera at a time.

No, product design in 2023 runs in parallel, not one product at a time.

I'm pretty sure it's the same team, working in parallel on multiple projects. There's no point in having two different teams working on the same core component (e.g. an EVF for the Q3 and an EVF for the SL3), you only end up diluting knowledge and problem solving solutions. This is even more true on the software side.

[Stuart Richardson]

1 hour ago, whowell said:

I really think Leica is missing the mark by not targeting the college educational market.  Leica cameras allow photographers to instantly be fully in control…

It's just cost...no school I have ever taught at or gone to had the funds to provide Leica gear....at least not Leica digital. In the older days you MIGHT find an M6 and standard lens or two, but most departments are not going to spend 20,000 dollars on a single camera and two lenses that might be dropped or stolen by a careless student. I am sure Leica would like it if people encountered Leica early, but the sad fact is that most people will not be able to afford Leica until they are either very well into their career or frankly, when their career is already over. Either that or they are wealthy enough to have been able to access it already. Even if you gave a 40% student discount (which I think Profoto had/has), most of the gear would still be way out of most students and educator's price range.

[whowell]

2 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

It's just cost...no school I have ever taught at or gone to had the funds to provide Leica gear....at least not Leica digital. In the older days you MIGHT find an M6 and standard lens or two, but most departments are not going to spend 20,000 dollars on a single camera and two lenses that might be dropped or stolen by a careless student. I am sure Leica would like it if people encountered Leica early, but the sad fact is that most people will not be able to afford Leica until they are either very well into their career or frankly, when their career is already over. Either that or they are wealthy enough to have been able to access it already. Even if you gave a 40% student discount (which I think Profoto had/has), most of the gear would still be way out of most students and educator's price range.

I understand about camera prices, however at some point… all one needs is exposure to become a lifelong customer.

 

I’ve given seminars to various college audiences in the past, and the gear we used was always super helpful in demonstrating techniques.  Teaching photography students “real world” camera/photography theory in a seminar fashion and giving them time to utilize Leica equipment during the demonstrations would go a long way to expose them to the brand.

 

heck… If Leica wanted to supply me one of every current camera/lens, I’d happily drive around to various colleges and give a hands on photography seminar for analog/digital through the lens and rangefinder.  Free of charge…

 

the sl3 rollout would be a great time to try this out… (hint hint Leica)

Edited November 11, 2023 by whowell

[Stuart Richardson]

I am sympathetic to what you are saying, but I think it is kind of like asking Ferrari to sponsor driver’s ed classes. An M11 costs 9000 dollars and most people doing a degree in photography are headed towards arts or education and on track to earn that in a year from photography. The irony is that the kinds of photography best suited to a Leica are the kinds that tend to pay the least (arts, journalism etc). With the exception of maybe documentary style wedding photography, most pros are going to gravitate towards other gear. Sadly I think Leica has found far more profit in being a luxury company (they were owned by Hermes for awhile, after all) than in being a nitty gritty camera company. As much as I love Leica, I would be far more likely to steer a student to Sigma or Panasonic than to Leica at this point. I think the gear is better but it feels almost irresponsible to influence a young mind into thinking that gear that is ten times the price is somehow necessary. 

[frame-it]

15 hours ago, whowell said:

I really think Leica is missing the mark by not targeting the college educational market.  Leica cameras allow photographers to instantly be fully in control…

in Korea, most of the high school / univ students ive seen [in the camera shops area] buy pentax or nikon film cameras, "fully in control"

 

 

 

[Stuart Richardson]

The last entry level class I taught here, most students couldn't even open the back of the camera they brought with them for the class and did not know about focus, aperture and shutter speed. They were used to phones. I used a 4x5 camera to show them what was actually going on from the standpoint of lenses, focal lengths and so on. There are a lot more people interested in film now it is true. That said, this is another area where unfortunately most of my students cannot really afford what they might want. Good used film cameras have rocketed up in price because the newest and best are now mostly 25+ years old and getting harder to fix and maintain, and the price of film and chemicals have gone through the stratosphere, growing many many times faster than inflation. A roll of Provia used to cost around 4-5 dollars twenty years ago, now it is 30. Adjusted for inflation it should cost 7. This is not just for slides, but also for black and white. In any case, like many things, film photography is becoming unaffordable. The good news for photography is that it is possible to make museum quality images on cheap cameras now, so it does open access to more people. High end cameras like the Leicas are retreating ever further from being attainable by the general public, however.

Anyway, sorry to derail us.

[whowell]

15 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I am sympathetic to what you are saying, but I think it is kind of like asking Ferrari to sponsor driver’s ed classes. An M11 costs 9000 dollars and most people doing a degree in photography are headed towards arts or education and on track to earn that in a year from photography. The irony is that the kinds of photography best suited to a Leica are the kinds that tend to pay the least (arts, journalism etc). With the exception of maybe documentary style wedding photography, most pros are going to gravitate towards other gear. Sadly I think Leica has found far more profit in being a luxury company (they were owned by Hermes for awhile, after all) than in being a nitty gritty camera company. As much as I love Leica, I would be far more likely to steer a student to Sigma or Panasonic than to Leica at this point. I think the gear is better but it feels almost irresponsible to influence a young mind into thinking that gear that is ten times the price is somehow necessary. 

I’m still not sure that I would consider Leica an out of reach luxury brand.  Phase one fits the Ferrari pricing structure in your world model much more than Leica.  Leica, in the automobile world would be closer (in my mind) to Volvo.  Incredible build quality, simple, and reliable.

And, anecdotal as they may be, my direct observations lead me to the thought process that handing a student a modern camera with lots of bells and whistles like a Panasonic (Fujifilm, Nikon, Canon, etc) may be beneficial to them in terms of exposing them to modern features… but it may actually be detrimental to their photography experience overall.  I agree that all the feature packed cameras are absolutely better for professionals with all sorts of technical needs… and that students should definitely learn how to use these tools over time.

but that comes with time… and experience.

For what it’s worth we have a Panasonic LUMIX S1 as well as a Leica Sl2s…  these are, by all intents and purposes, the same camera… with entirely different user interface design approaches.

If I hand an intern the Panasonic, they spend the afternoon learning how to work the camera while snapping photos.  If I hand them the SL2s, within minutes they are concentrating on learning composition and understanding the exposure triangle.

Regardless of what anyone thinks about the brand in terms of financial status, the art of stopping time and capturing a story in one frame is the quintessential skill that I feel students (under my observation) need to understand… they can learn all the cool tech stuff later..

the cell phone camera revolution stripped away any/all technical barriers for budding photographers… it’s interesting to me that these kids can grab a Leica and instantly start understanding interchangeable lens photography at a fundamental level… 

I also don’t feel it’s bad at all to expose them to these tools early on in their career.  This gives them personal goals to reach for and exposure to different user interface design ecosystems.

One of the great things about endeavors like photography, or music.. is the journey… and exposure to amazing instruments along the way.  I remember the first guitar store I walked into with a pre-war Martin d-18… it didn’t matter that I only had only been playing a year or so… the store owner still let me play it. the music that came out of that guitar still haunts me.

Thirty years later… after performing in countless venues, and delving into multiple musical genres… Do I own one?  Nope… do I still want one?  Yup.

the exposure to that guitar showed me what was possible, and it inspired me.

As the cell phone and ai revolutions dominate the camera landscape, and the future state of our art form is in question… it’s imperative that the quintessential camera brands that our community is built upon survive.  We need Canon to compete with Sony.  We need Nikon to push the wildlife envelope.  We need fujifilm to handslap the medium format world and show us the true power of aps-c… we need hasselblad to do whatever it is that they do… and we need Leica to continue to make cameras that get out of the way and lenses that nobody can afford.

like I said… at work… I hand students a Leica, and they instantly start taking photos… later on, I hand them the fujifilm… canon… Panasonic… and they work their way up to cinema cameras..  

Personally speaking, I hope they go on and use every brand of camera… and have a full life of meaningful photographic experiences.

Exposing them to awesome tools is, in my mind, one of the best things I can do for them.

All that said…. If the SL3 has the Q3 flip screen, I’m still selling my kidney to get it.

[whowell]

14 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

The last entry level class I taught here, most students couldn't even open the back of the camera they brought with them for the class and did not know about focus, aperture and shutter speed. They were used to phones. I used a 4x5 camera to show them what was actually going on from the standpoint of lenses, focal lengths and so on. There are a lot more people interested in film now it is true. That said, this is another area where unfortunately most of my students cannot really afford what they might want. Good used film cameras have rocketed up in price because the newest and best are now mostly 25+ years old and getting harder to fix and maintain, and the price of film and chemicals have gone through the stratosphere, growing many many times faster than inflation. A roll of Provia used to cost around 4-5 dollars twenty years ago, now it is 30. Adjusted for inflation it should cost 7. This is not just for slides, but also for black and white. In any case, like many things, film photography is becoming unaffordable. The good news for photography is that it is possible to make museum quality images on cheap cameras now, so it does open access to more people. High end cameras like the Leicas are retreating ever further from being attainable by the general public, however.

Anyway, sorry to derail us.

I really like your viewpoints, and actually don’t think you’re derailing the conversation.  We’re all here because we’re photographers… and, in my mind, we have to stick together.

I wasn’t going to go down the film camera rabbit hole, but I totally agree.  We are seeing a resurgence in film photography… I’m hopeful the demand becomes so great that it becomes financially feasible for camera companies can start producing mechanical cameras again.

I love and miss my time performing film photography, and honestly look forward to the day I don’t have to turn things around so fast for presentations/social media etc… 

[Simone_DF]

On 11/12/2023 at 3:48 PM, whowell said:

I’m still not sure that I would consider Leica an out of reach luxury brand.  Phase one fits the Ferrari pricing structure in your world model much more than Leica.  Leica, in the automobile world would be closer (in my mind) to Volvo.  Incredible build quality, simple, and reliable.

Volvos are not sold in boutiques in luxury malls, next to Prada and Hermes, and don’t have collaborations with other luxury and lifestyle brands like e.g. the 500€ Leica Zegna camera strap. 

[PeterBoyadjian]

Leica needs a Q-E

SL2S Sensor, 1.7 28, Bult in Flash. NO VIDEO. Super simple menu. 

3000$

Then give me a SL3, SL2S noise performance with more megapixels. Phase detect for action video, S5II body stabilization. 

$6500

Take my money Leica. 

[frankchn]

On 11/12/2023 at 7:48 AM, whowell said:

I’m still not sure that I would consider Leica an out of reach luxury brand.  Phase one fits the Ferrari pricing structure in your world model much more than Leica.  Leica, in the automobile world would be closer (in my mind) to Volvo.  Incredible build quality, simple, and reliable.

PhaseOne, to me, is more like one of those commercial restaurant vendors that does almost no consumer business. If you run a banquet hall and needs to prepare food for 1,000 people at once, then you go them and pay their price. For everyone else, they are really overkill.

Leica is more like Porsche. Definitely a step up in price compared to even their competitors (BMW, Mercedes, Audi), but there are unique selling points and some folks really swear by their products even if it is technically inferior on a spec sheet (manual rear-engined 911s vs modern mid-engine auto everything wonders, M cameras with no autofocus vs R3/A1/Z9) and would buy nothing else.

Edited November 13, 2023 by frankchn

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[BernardC]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

Volvos are not sold in boutiques in luxury malls, next to Prada and Hermes, and don’t have collaborations with other luxury and lifestyle brands like e.g. the 500€ Leica Zegna camera strap. 

That's a nice one. Other models are available, of course.

I recently purchased a new (old stock) Leica wrist strap from an authorized dealer for 25€. I could have purchased a Peak Design strap from the same store, for slightly more money, but the Leica one looks nicer. This appeals to me as a visual artist. Functionally, they are about equal. One is nylon, the other nubuck, but they are both fit for purpose.

Volvo offers this on their site: "Designed in collaboration with the Swedish brand, Elodie, this Sand-coloured dummy strap ensures a baby’s dummy never gets lost on its travels." You are correct, it is a lot cheaper than a Leica strap, or a Peak Design one.