SL3 Rumors

[frankchn]

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4 hours ago, BernardC said:

Let's compare like with like. Leica's 24MP offering is the SL2-S, not the SL2. The SL2-S is $800 less expensive than Sony's new a9.

The 47MP SL2 is similar to Sony's 50MP a1, and they are priced within 10% of each other. Don't forget that Leica's 47MP sensor rates much higher in image quality, plus Leica has much better IBIS, and access to better lenses (which matters if you need the highest resolution). If that last $500 makes a big difference to you, go for the Sony (or find a used/old-stock S1r, which is an awesome deal). If not, just pick the one you prefer. No one will think less of you in either scenario.

The SL2-S has nowhere near the functionality of the A9III though. The autofocus functionality of the Sony is eons ahead of Leica, not to mention 1/80000 flash sync (something no other camera on the market has), or a higher resolution EVF (9+ million dots vs 5.76 on the SL2), or 120 fps continuous high shooting with AE/AF, or even the ability to take a better card format (CFexpress A vs slower SD cards).

Regarding the A1 vs the SL2, the A1 has better dynamic range along the entire ISO range (https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica SL2,Sony ILCE-1) so you cannot say that the SL2 sensor rates much higher than the A1. In fact the DR of the A1 is similar to the SL2-S, despite having double the megapixels. This is again disregarding functionality that the A1 has (AF, fps, higher resolution EVF, etc...) over the SL2 as well.

I would also say that the E-mount has more complete lens line-up and the G-Master and Sigma Art lens lineups are no slouch, even if you compare them head to head against the APO SL lineup (and I have the entire APO SL set except the new 21mm).

It also doesn't address the fact that if you just want the 47 MP sensor in an L-mount, you can also just get a Panasonic S1R. Leica justifies that price premium because they are a more premium and luxury brand and the SL2 has some intangibles that don't show up on spec sheets (perceived build quality, interfaces, handling, etc...) and that's perfectly fine. It doesn't change the fact that if you compare functionality, Leica products are more expensive.

Edited November 16, 2023 by frankchn

[IkarusJohn]

7 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Evolutionary, not revolutionary. I can't think of what would make it revolutionary.

(But since we cannot agree on what is luxury, what is high-end tech, and what is a significant price differential among cameras, I suspect that is also how this discussion will go: what is evolutionary vs revolutionary.)

I guess that’s a question of definition.

For the first 60 years or so of M camera development, the controversies were framelines, viewfinder magnification and a built in meter.  Now we have a whole lot of stuff in the M11 which I would call revolutionary in Leica terms.

The SL was a fantastic camera on release.  Based on other releases, it was complete, resolved and available.  The SL2 was a development, but in a new generation addicted to upgrades and technological advances (I’m sure it’s somebodies law), which is coming next.  Buyers seem to expect huge tech leaps, where the constraints of ISO, aperture, shutter speed and focus (okay, probably white balance) remain the same.

I’m not a purist.  I just like access to what has really defined photography since the beginning, without a whole lot of crap getting in the way (optional or not).

[IkarusJohn]

Why are we talking about Sony?

[frankchn]

7 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Why are we talking about Sony?

We are discussing if the SL2 is "competitively priced" against the mirrorless competition, but I think deep down we all know that Leicas are more expensive if you look at spec sheets. But that's not why we buy them 😀

Edited November 16, 2023 by frankchn

[IkarusJohn]

3 minutes ago, frankchn said:

We are discussing if the SL2 is "competitively priced" against the mirrorless competition, but I think deep know we all know that Leicas are not competitive if you look at spec sheets. But that's not why we buy them 😀

No, we’re discussing the SL3.

[frankchn]

1 minute ago, IkarusJohn said:

No, we’re discussing the SL3.

Well the thread has gotten derailed.

[Simone_DF]

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16 minutes ago, BernardC said:

Leica's 47MP sensor was the highest-rated full-frame sensor on DxO for many years, although the M11 sensor now surpasses it. So if you define "image quality" by colour depth, accuracy, and dynamic range, you should consider a camera that uses one of these two sensor. If you define it by speed (AF and read speed), look at options from Sony, Canon, Nikon. They will all cost around the same in the end, so choose according to your own preferences.

Do Sony (or Canon or Nikon) users take inferior images because of their sensor? Also isn't the M11 sensor the same sensor used in the Sony A7RIV?

Moreover, I do also believe that the A1 sensor is superior, especially in noise handling, to the SL2, which I found unusable above 3200 iso and the main reason I sold it and went for the SL2-S

20 minutes ago, BernardC said:

They'll sell you a new camera every quarter.

 This is like saying that Leica users are all dentists and whatnot. No, Sony won't sell you a new camera every quarter. The A9II was released in December 2019, the A9III in December 2023. That's 4 years. No successors for the A1 yet, which was launched in January 2021. The gap between the A7C and A7CII is also 4 years. The only recent release to suffer a shorter release gap is the 2.5 years between the A7RIV and A7RV.

24 minutes ago, BernardC said:

Ironically, this conversation started with accusations that Leica customers were followers of fashion (and by implication, people who purchase other brands are not), but here we are: there's a strong case to be made that buying an SL2 on release would have saved you thousands compared to buying the latest Sony upgrades

How?

Also fashion is not luxury, it's two different things. Zara and Top Man are fashion brands but not luxury. Valentino and Armani are fashion brands AND luxury.

Leica and their 800€ lighter is a luxury brand, the Canon etc are not.

27 minutes ago, BernardC said:

Why is this upsetting? Why denigrate other people's ranking system? It's just a camera.

Nobody is denigrating anything or anyone. I have a SL2-S and a good chunk of Leica glass between the APOs and M mount, and ironically the reasons why I'm using it is exactly the same as yours. My other camera is a Voigtlander Bessa. I currently don't have any other digital camera, although I've used most brands at one time or another.

[frankchn]

2 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Moreover, I do also believe that the A1 sensor is superior, especially in noise handling, to the SL2, which I found unusable above 3200 iso and the main reason I sold it and went for the SL2-S

Yeah, the A1 sensor is a stop better compared to the SL2 and behaves similarly to the SL2-S sensor. Partly because the SL2 sensor isn't BSI so it isn't as efficient in gathering light compared to more modern ones.

2 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Nobody is denigrating anything or anyone. I have a SL2-S and a good chunk of Leica glass between the APOs and M mount, and ironically the reasons why I'm using it is exactly the same as yours. My other camera is a Voigtlander Bessa. I currently don't have any other digital camera, although I've used most brands at one time or another.

Precisely, I like the SL2 and I have one along with all the APO SL primes except the new 21mm, along with an M11 and M11M and a pile of M mount lenses as well. I think it is perfectly fine to talk about what are the pros and cons of the current products, and what we wish Leica can do better the next time around with the SL3, and I don't think it is denigrating anyone's camera choice.

[LBJ2]

21 minutes ago, frankchn said:

Yeah, the A1 sensor is a stop better compared to the SL2 and behaves similarly to the SL2-S sensor. Partly because the SL2 sensor isn't BSI so it isn't as efficient in gathering light compared to more modern ones.

Precisely, I like the SL2 and I have one along with all the APO SL primes except the new 21mm, along with an M11 and M11M and a pile of M mount lenses as well. I think it is perfectly fine to talk about what are the pros and cons of the current products, and what we wish Leica can do better the next time around with the SL3, and I don't think it is denigrating anyone's camera choice.

Very nice Leica kit(s) you have! Two of my personal favorites, the M11 and the SL2. 

While the SL3 is expected by just about everyone, even by the infamous forum SL-doomsayers, what about the next SL APO lens or lenses? Personally, I don't think the 21 APO will be a popular SL lens for a couple of reasons. I was hoping for the SL 24 APO, but I now think the 24mm APO is probably not going to happen. 

Surely, the SL 21 APO can't be the last of the APO prime lenses? 

Edited November 16, 2023 by LBJ2

[frankchn]

17 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

Very nice Leica kit(s) you have! Two of my personal favorites, the M11 and the SL2. 

While the SL3 is expected by just about everyone, even by the infamous forum SL-doomsayers, what about the next SL APO lens or lenses? Personally, I don't think the 21 APO will be a popular SL lens for a couple of reasons. I was hoping for the SL 24 APO, but I now think the 24mm APO is probably not going to happen. 

Surely, the SL 21 APO can't be the last of the APO prime lenses? 

There is the APO 24mm that is on the roadmap that is not yet released, so that would nice to complete the set from 21 through 90. I personally like the consistency of the mechanical package through the range even if I get confused about what lens I am picking up sometimes, and wider than 21 and longer than 90 might be hard to achieve.

If we design new lens housings then I would like to see APO 135 f/2 (one of my favorite portrait focal lengths and I have the RF 135/1.8 IS for Canon). Another lens that would be very welcome would be an 1:1 APO Macro of some sort as well.

[LBJ2]

42 minutes ago, frankchn said:

There is the APO 24mm that is on the roadmap that is not yet released, so that would nice to complete the set from 21 through 90. I personally like the consistency of the mechanical package through the range even if I get confused about what lens I am picking up sometimes, and wider than 21 and longer than 90 might be hard to achieve.

If we design new lens housings then I would like to see APO 135 f/2 (one of my favorite portrait focal lengths and I have the RF 135/1.8 IS for Canon). Another lens that would be very welcome would be an 1:1 APO Macro of some sort as well.

Hopefully when the SL3 is introduced Leica will also talk about their plans for the SL lens system going forward. I do like the idea of a 1:1 APO Macro. 100M FL would be for me a treat. 135/2 APO like you wrote will probably require a larger than SL APO lens barrel, which I don't think would be a problem for most of us. 

If the highly anticipated PDAF is included in the SL3 that might also inspire some ideas for new SL lenses. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by LBJ2

[Simone_DF]

I'd buy a 135 APO too. 

For the macro option, there were rumors about Leica rebadging the Sigma 105, which is highly regarded.

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

Also isn't the M11 sensor the same sensor used in the Sony A7RIV?

The people who know the answer aren't allowed to tell. All we know for sure is that the M11 sensor tests better than other current 60MP (nominal) full frame sensors, notably Sony's a7r3 and r4 sensors.

1 hour ago, frankchn said:

Partly because the SL2 sensor isn't BSI so it isn't as efficient in gathering light compared to more modern ones.

Sony didn't invent BSI, and they weren't first to implement. Tower Semi tell us that they make full frame sensors, and that they make BSI and stacked wafers that correspond to the pixel density of the 47MP sensor: https://towersemi.com/technology/cmos_image_sensor/professional-photography-cis/ . In other words, the current 47MP sensor might already be BSI, and any new sensor from them could be BSI and stacked. I'm sure that Leica and Panasonic are evaluating sensors from multiple suppliers, we'll find-out in due time.

1 hour ago, LBJ2 said:

I was hoping for the SL 24 APO, but I now think the 24mm APO is probably not going to happen. 

I recently started a completely made-up rumour that the upcoming APO 24 will cover the S4 (medium format) sensor. It's just an uninformed guess, but it makes a bit of sense when you consider that 24mm is traditionally one of the least popular Leica fixed focal lengths, but it is popular for medium format (where it corresponds to a 19mm field of view on full-frame).

[LBJ2]

27 minutes ago, BernardC said:

The people who know the answer aren't allowed to tell. All we know for sure is that the M11 sensor tests better than other current 60MP (nominal) full frame sensors, notably Sony's a7r3 and r4 sensors.

Sony didn't invent BSI, and they weren't first to implement. Tower Semi tell us that they make full frame sensors, and that they make BSI and stacked wafers that correspond to the pixel density of the 47MP sensor: https://towersemi.com/technology/cmos_image_sensor/professional-photography-cis/ . In other words, the current 47MP sensor might already be BSI, and any new sensor from them could be BSI and stacked. I'm sure that Leica and Panasonic are evaluating sensors from multiple suppliers, we'll find-out in due time.

I recently started a completely made-up rumour that the upcoming APO 24 will cover the S4 (medium format) sensor. It's just an uninformed guess, but it makes a bit of sense when you consider that 24mm is traditionally one of the least popular Leica fixed focal lengths, but it is popular for medium format (where it corresponds to a 19mm field of view on full-frame).

Instead we got the... 14-24 zoom 🫤 Your rumor seems a bit more interesting to me. Not there is anything wrong with the zoom. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by LBJ2

[frankchn]

23 minutes ago, BernardC said:

The people who know the answer aren't allowed to tell. All we know for sure is that the M11 sensor tests better than other current 60MP (nominal) full frame sensors, notably Sony's a7r3 and r4 sensors.

Sony didn't invent BSI, and they weren't first to implement. Tower Semi tell us that they make full frame sensors, and that they make BSI and stacked wafers that correspond to the pixel density of the 47MP sensor: https://towersemi.com/technology/cmos_image_sensor/professional-photography-cis/ . In other words, the current 47MP sensor might already be BSI, and any new sensor from them could be BSI and stacked. I'm sure that Leica and Panasonic are evaluating sensors from multiple suppliers, we'll find-out in due time.

I recently started a completely made-up rumour that the upcoming APO 24 will cover the S4 (medium format) sensor. It's just an uninformed guess, but it makes a bit of sense when you consider that 24mm is traditionally one of the least popular Leica fixed focal lengths, but it is popular for medium format (where it corresponds to a 19mm field of view on full-frame).

Yeah I might be wrong about the BSI thing, and yeah multiple manufacturers can make stacked BSI sensors nowadays (Canon and Sony both use those).

It would be difficult for any of the SL lenses to cover a 45x30 (S3) or 44x33 (GFX, X2D) sensor since the L mount throat diameter isn't wide enough. It is possible, but I suspect there will be optical compromises Leica won't tolerate.

[BernardC]

4 minutes ago, frankchn said:

It would be difficult for any of the SL lenses to cover a 45x30 (S3) or 44x33 (GFX, X2D) sensor since the L mount throat diameter isn't wide enough. It is possible, but I suspect there will be optical compromises Leica won't tolerate.

I did say it was made-up! That particular issue is solvable. Off the top of my head, they could package it with an adapter so that it works on both platforms. It could be a "dumb" adapter (wires, but no no chip), if the new medium format system uses the L-mount communication protocol.

There is a historical precedence. Several early M lenses were actually screw-mount lenses with M adapters.

[Olaf_ZG]

This discussion totally killed my appetite for the SL3. So boring. 
 

All I want is to put the camera on a tripod, flip the screen and make 15min exposures without LENR. It would be great if the results would be better than gfx/hb.

[LBJ2]

15 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

This discussion totally killed my appetite for the SL3. So boring. 
 

All I want is to put the camera on a tripod, flip the screen and make 15min exposures without LENR. It would be great if the results would be better than gfx/hb.

It might help if we actually had some new SL3 rumors to talk about for the last 35 pages. Until then, all we got is each other and our opinions and stories about everything but the SL3 ha ha 😂

[Richardgb]

22 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Sony, Canon and Nikon have top of the line tech. This tech is expensive, even more so on the R&D side. Leica is always one or two generations behind with cheaper, older technology. Which is fine. I don't buy Leica for its tech, but this is a different discussion.

Leica had its logo on Huawei phones, and now that they're gone, on Xiaomi smartphones, one of the most popular brands out there, so they do have their partnerships.  

I'm fine with any special edition Leica puts out, because it fills their coffins, and you're right, it's clever marketing. But it's marketing aimed at the luxury section of their customer base.

Leicas are great photography tools, there's no denying that, I'm using a couple of them myself and so are people on this forum, but they also target the luxury and lifestyle section of the market to differentiate themselves from other brands, and there's nothing wrong with that, they found their niche and it's profitable for them, and they can be both.

I doubt even Leica has thought of a special edition of these, but for the enthusiuast who has everything (and can't take it with 'him'), maybe there's a market...

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Richardgb]

4 hours ago, BernardC said:

Leica's 47MP sensor was the highest-rated full-frame sensor on DxO for many years, although the M11 sensor now surpasses it. So if you define "image quality" by colour depth, accuracy, and dynamic range, you should consider a camera that uses one of these two sensor. If you define it by speed (AF and read speed), look at options from Sony, Canon, Nikon. They will all cost around the same in the end, so choose according to your own preferences.

Obviously, if having "the latest" is especially important to you, irrespective of image quality, Sony has you covered. They'll sell you a new camera every quarter. Not the most cost-effective approach, but we all have different priorities. Ironically, this conversation started with accusations that Leica customers were followers of fashion (and by implication, people who purchase other brands are not), but here we are: there's a strong case to be made that buying an SL2 on release would have saved you thousands compared to buying the latest Sony upgrades, and you would have benefited from the best image quality all along. Maybe it's not for you, but this logic appeals to some of us.

That's why I find this conversation interesting from a psychological point of view. We are all adults, we make decisions like these every day. And yet you'll get tons of static if you explain your choice. I've stated multiple times that every major brand makes good products, and they each have unique features. Maybe one camera is faster. That's about as appealing to me as buying a car that can reach 3x the speed limit instead of just double the speed limit, but it matters to others. That's fine with me. Another camera offers better UI, or colour response. We all rank these features differently. Why is this upsetting? Why denigrate other people's ranking system? It's just a camera.

But that's just the problem. To take the lyrics from a well-known story:

'Now, to tell the truth, there wasn't a suit of clothes; but, the swindlers held up their hands like this and said, "You Majesty, this is a magic suit, and, naturally, since you're very wise and intelligent, you can see how beautiful it is; but, to a fool it is absolutely invisible."

'"I see," said the king. And, not wanting to appear a fool, he added:

'"Isn't it grand? Isn't it fine?
Look at the cut, the style, the linе!"'

Source: https://genius.com/Bernard-cribbins-the-kings-new-clothes-lyrics

Now, don't get me wrong, the King or anyone else is welcome to spend their hard-earned cash on anything they please, but they put their repuation at risk by making out that their acquisition is anything more than what it says on the tin. (And, for the sake of clarity as well as to deflect a call from m'learned friends, I'm not saying a certain German camera manufacturer which is known for its red dot is swindling anyone. They can not be responsible for the apparent values others may attribute to their wares).