Developing b&w at higher temperature

[Aryel]

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Hello,

I am currently using a separate fridge to store cold water and the mixed fixer, I then use these to prepare the chemicals and process at 20 degrees c. 

I am wondering if I could simplify my process and develop at room temperature. The water here is typically coming out at 28 degree Celsius (of course it varies with the weather). Is this too hot? Is there a way for me to work out developing time at this temperature ?

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[Aryel]

I am aware of ilford recommendations:

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Temperature-compensation-chart.pdf
 

Anyone tested this?

[Richardgb]

On 2/1/2023 at 10:33 AM, Aryel said:

I am aware of ilford recommendations:

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Temperature-compensation-chart.pdf
 

Anyone tested this?

You can probably 'get away with' processing up to 27C as per the Ilford chart but there are a couple of points to remember:

Try and get the other chemicals (stop bath, fixer) up to the same temperature as the developer. If your tap water for washing is much different, fill the tank with water at the chemicals' temperature and slowly run the tap water into it (washing does not need a vigorous flow in any case).

Do not go above 27C if at all possible with black-and-white film as the emulsion is not hardened to the same extent as colour films which can be processed several degrees higher. Thus B&W film is much more susceptible to thermal shock and in extreme cases reticulation. While all wet film is phyisically delicate, the warmer it is, the more delicate it becomes.

(There are / were ways around the problem if high temperatures cannot be avoided - an internet search may come up with some tips, or contact Ilford directly).

[Einst_Stein]

Sometimes I do stand development. It can be done in normal room temperature. Please search Stand development for details.

Two popular developers for this are Rodinal and HC-110. Typically using very low concentration, such as 100:1. Make  sure the film is completely merged in the chemistry. I found PMK and Pyrocat not so good for this process. YMMV.

It starts with about 10 -30 sec agitation, then leave it “standing” for an hour or so, (duration not critical , as long as it is enough). No temperature control. Some people may do 5-10sec agitation every 30min or so.

The result tends to have lower global contrast and high micro contrast. Some people like it a lot but I am not so crazy about it. Give it a try, you might like it.

Please consult “massive develop chart” for better instruction.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Einst_Stein

[Aryel]

Thanks a lot for the inputs @Richardgb, @Einst_Stein. I have decided to stick to my current method for now i.e store the fixer and enough water for processing in the fridge.

My impression is that I could get away with it but I’d also have to do lot of testing with various film and developer combinations. 

Thanks a lot for the advices. 

[PCPix]

My school darkroom in the 70’s was freezing in winter, with no heating. I used to process HP5 rated at 1600 in Microphen at 1:1 mix. I would heat the dev to 35C (yes you read that right). By the end of the development the temperature would be about 16C. My naivety thought that this must vaguely equate to a regular 20C steady process. 

Here’s the thing - these are still among my most favourite negatives from a 40+ year career. The prints (on Galerie FB grade 3) are stunningly rich with beautiful deep shadow detail, with the nicest grain I’ve ever generated...

Must have been a fluke, but it did work. Just goes to show: all the instructions are simply guidelines. Try it out your way and see what the results look like. Be consistent and if you’re happy with the results, what else matters? I personally wouldn’t worry about 27C, just correct the time as per the Ilford chart. 

[Pyrogallol]

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I use a similar chart that comes with Ilford films/chemicals and found it works well for temperatures upto about 26c.

[Aryel]

Thanks a lot for sharing  @PCPix, @Pyrogallol .  I won’t hesitate to try if needed again.

[Stuart Richardson]

It's a chemical reaction, and the temperature is primarily just driving the speed at which it occurs. Commercial developing is sometimes done at higher temperature. There is not anything wrong with it per se, but the chemicals and processes were optimized for 20 degrees C, so doing it at that temperature will be consistent and optimal. Increasing the temperature will make some problematic effects more likely though. As mentioned, being too warm can soften the emulsion more, but I would say the bigger worry at these temperatures would be that your process time gets too short. If you have a really quick process time, this can increase the likelihood that you will have uneven development or things like streaking on the negative. Keep in mind that color processing is done at 38 degrees, so 28 is nothing that film in general can't handle.

My suggestion would be to keep the processing chemicals at 20, but you should be fine to rinse at 28...it will even make the rinsing go quicker. You might consider gradually increasing the temp from 20 to 28 when you rinse (by, for example, leaving 20C water in the tank while you pour in the 28C water, so there is not thermal shock, but I don't think it will be an issue with an 8 degree difference.

Where are you that your cold water is 28C? Ours here in Iceland is more like 6 or 7, haha...definitely inconvenient for processing on the other end of the temp scale...

Edited February 28, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

[M.Hilo]

5 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

It's a chemical reaction, and the temperature is primarily just driving the speed at which it occurs. Commercial developing is sometimes done at higher temperature. There is not anything wrong with it per se, but the chemicals and processes were optimized for 20 degrees C, so doing it at that temperature will be consistent and optimal. Increasing the temperature will make some problematic effects more likely though. As mentioned, being too warm can soften the emulsion more, but I would say the bigger worry at these temperatures would be that your process time gets too short. If you have a really quick process time, this can increase the likelihood that you will have uneven development or things like streaking on the negative. Keep in mind that color processing is done at 38 degrees, so 28 is nothing that film in general can't handle.

My suggestion would be to keep the processing chemicals at 20, but you should be fine to rinse at 28...it will even make the rinsing go quicker. You might consider gradually increasing the temp from 20 to 28 when you rinse (by, for example, leaving 20C water in the tank while you pour in the 28C water, so there is not thermal shock, but I don't think it will be an issue with an 8 degree difference.

Where are you that your cold water is 28C? Ours here in Iceland is more like 6 or 7, haha...definitely inconvenient for processing on the other end of the temp scale...

I developed film in some tiny town in the middle of Australia: same situation. I basically did what you are doing, except the fridge was from the middle ages. Stuart's suggestion to allow washing at 28 degrees is excellent. Just make sure the temperature changes are always gradual. And Stuart is also right to caution you about softer emulsion, so I wouldn't use any type of squeegee. A friend in Paris put the reels in a manual lettuce dryer. The plastic one. It worked to get the excess water off . . .

[Aryel]

Thanks a lot @Stuart Richardson, @M.Hilo! 

I am already rinsing at 28degrees, I also already do exactly what you suggested and increase the water temperature in steps. I do not use squeezee but Kimtech wipes without issue. 

You made me realise that my issue can be solved by simply developing at 20 degrees, stopping close to 24 degrees and fixing/rinsing close to 28 degrees. This way I can get rid of the small fridge as keeping only water in the family fridge will be safe. 

Will use some test rolls to confirm that there is no reticulation.

I am located in Singapore. Weather is hot most of the time 😊

[Stuart Richardson]

That sounds good. Only thing I would recommend is getting a wetting agent like Photo Flo and air drying instead of wiping. With the proper ratio of photo flo to water for your water hardness, there should be little to no need to wipe anything. Wiping just risks scratches and leftover dust, even with mostly lint free wipes. Using very clean or distilled water with photo flo as a final rinse and drying in dust free environment is the safest and best option for your negs. Photo Flo is cheap and lasts forever. I am literally on the same bottle of photo flo that I bought in 2003 and it has done thousands of rolls. (I dilute 1 to 400 usually as Icelandic water is super soft). It only runs out if you start using it in trays. But for 500mL at a time it is essentially infinite. 

[Aryel]

3 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

That sounds good. Only thing I would recommend is getting a wetting agent like Photo Flo and air drying instead of wiping. With the proper ratio of photo flo to water for your water hardness, there should be little to no need to wipe anything. Wiping just risks scratches and leftover dust, even with mostly lint free wipes. Using very clean or distilled water with photo flo as a final rinse and drying in dust free environment is the safest and best option for your negs. Photo Flo is cheap and lasts forever. I am literally on the same bottle of photo flo that I bought in 2003 and it has done thousands of rolls. (I dilute 1 to 400 usually as Icelandic water is super soft). It only runs out if you start using it in trays. But for 500mL at a time it is essentially infinite. 

I use ilfotol and water coming from a dehumidifier for the final rinse. I still had water marks so added the kimtech wipes step which has solved it. Did not detect more scratches…

Thanks again for your inputs. It is really helpful!

[Xícara de Café]

I live in a warm climate and develop mostly at 24 degrees C. At home, our drinking water is passed through a charcoal filter device that is refrigerated with sepatate chilled and room-temperature knobs. So it's ideal for getting the the water at the desired temperature. Only rarely, on a particularly cold winter morning, do I need to heat the water to reach 24 degrees. I've never bothered adjusting the stop bath or washing temperatures but others here may well know better than to do that.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Xícara de Café

[hansvons]

I live in a temperate climate and develop at 24 degrees because it's faster. The results are as good as at 20 degrees. My developer is Xtol 1:1.