Difference? Used Excellent Leica S 007: from USD 3500~ 12000

[Einst_Stein]

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Used S 007 are priced from US$ 3500 to 12000. Grade excellent. What could be the difference?

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[Sarnian]

The seller asking for $12,000 is just 'chancing their arm' as why wouldn't you just buy a second-hand S3?? 

My 7/10 condition 007 isn't selling at £2,175 (+ VAT) on ebay.co.uk. That's a bargain! 

[Einst_Stein]

3 minutes ago, Sarnian said:

The seller asking for $12,000 is just 'chancing their arm' as why wouldn't you just buy a second-hand S3?? 

My 7/10 condition 007 isn't selling at £2,175 (+ VAT) on ebay.co.uk. That's a bargain! 

I think your descriptions about the buttons make people unfamiliar with this camera scared. It is unclear what it means in the practical use. Also the trips back to Leica may be scary too. If you could elaborate more how they affect the usage, reliability might help to gain the confidence, 

But, you mean the items graded Excellent from some large vendors that look not as scary has the reasonable price? Too much deviation is over priced? I believe you are right, 

[Sarnian]

20 minutes ago, Einst_Stein said:

I think your descriptions about the buttons make people unfamiliar with this camera scared. It is unclear what it means in the practical use. Also the trips back to Leica may be scary too. If you could elaborate more how they affect the usage, reliability might help to gain the confidence

 

I guess being too honest doesn't pay... 😇

If it doesn't sell by the Springtime I'll list my other 007 that's 99.9% Mint & Boxed and I'll keep this one. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Sarnian

[shanefking]

6 minutes ago, Sarnian said:

I guess being too honest doesn't pay... 😇

If it doesn't sell by the Springtime I'll list my other 007 that's 99.9% Mint & Boxed and I'll keep this one. 

I’ll hop on it if its still available in a few months.  I’m waiting for some jobs to come in.

 

[LeicaR10]

Einst_Stein,  The used MF market especially for cameas like the S, Fuji and Hasselblad systems have historically shown far greater depreciation than say Leica M cameras and lenses. I once asked my Leica Store owner and very good friend, why so on the depreciation.  He told me, MF is a niche market, not a lot of demand, photographers will only pay what they believe the gear is worth and so the used price points are reflected in the resale market.  I used the S system for over 14 years for my business.  As a pro, I would depreciate the equipment on my business taxes as many pros do.  Others I know only rent/lease the S system for their work and write that expense off too.  One will find when a new S camera arrives on scene is when the greatest value drop occurs.  The resale market on used MF gear plummets by more than 50% on camera bodies and then another 1/3 once the new model has been on market for about a year or so.  Most photographers using the S system take care of the gear.  Its expensive gear and abusing it doesn't make sense if looking for reliablity.  Right now, Camera West has a used mint S3 for about $12K.  Leica Store Miami has two used S007s for $4-5K both in excellent condition.  When I owned the S system, it was very reliable in the field.  Only the AF motor issue caused a hickup for Leica but S lenses are still the best MF lenses made that require no firmware adjustments.  IMO, S lenses with AF motors replaced and used S007 cameras are quite the bargin for anyone wishing to use a niche camera that delivers stunning cinematic look photographs.  The S system is in a league unto itself.  I suspect the S4 system will be another home run for Leica and maybe lower entry price too.  Whether it depeciates like past/present MF camera systems, only the future market will tell us.  Happy Holidays!  r/ Mark

Edited December 24, 2022 by LeicaR10

[Einst_Stein]

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5 hours ago, shanefking said:

I’ll hop on it if its still available in a few months.  I’m waiting for some jobs to come in.

 

Personally I think Sarnian’s S 007 is a fine working stuff. What is described should be a subjective  matter. 

[Einst_Stein]

1 hour ago, LeicaR10 said:

Einst_Stein,  The used MF market especially for cameas like the S, Fuji and Hasselblad systems have historically shown far greater depreciation than say Leica M cameras and lenses. I once asked my Leica Store owner and very good friend, why so on the depreciation.  He told me, MF is a niche market, not a lot of demand, photographers will only pay what they believe the gear is worth and so the used price points are reflected in the resale market.  I used the S system for over 14 years for my business.  As a pro, I would depreciate the equipment on my business taxes as many pros do.  Others I know only rent/lease the S system for their work and write that expense off too.  One will find when a new S camera arrives on scene is when the greatest value drop occurs.  The resale market on used MF gear plummets by more than 50% on camera bodies and then another 1/3 once the new model has been on market for about a year or so.  Most photographers using the S system take care of the gear.  Its expensive gear and abusing it doesn't make sense if looking for reliablity.  Right now, Camera West has a used mint S3 for about $12K.  Leica Store Miami has two used S007s for $4-5K both in excellent condition.  When I owned the S system, it was very reliable in the field.  Only the AF motor issue caused a hickup for Leica but S lenses are still the best MF lenses made that require no firmware adjustments.  IMO, S lenses with AF motors replaced and used S007 cameras are quite the bargin for anyone wishing to use a niche camera that delivers stunning cinematic look photographs.  The S system is in a league unto itself.  I suspect the S4 system will be another home run for Leica and maybe lower entry price too.  Whether it depeciates like past/present MF camera systems, only the future market will tell us.  Happy Holidays!  r/ Mark

I believe you are absolutely right. more professional it would be more rational. 
 

[Einst_Stein]

6 hours ago, Sarnian said:

I guess being too honest doesn't pay... 😇

If it doesn't sell by the Springtime I'll list my other 007 that's 99.9% Mint & Boxed and I'll keep this one. 

If it can save you some listing and transaction fee, please PM me when you are ready to list the other one. 

[Sarnian]

10 hours ago, Einst_Stein said:

Personally I think Sarnian’s S 007 is a fine working stuff. What is described should be a subjective  matter. 

It certainly is. All of the 007 photos that I've posted on this site have been with this camera.

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[Stuart Richardson]

I have been trying to sell my used S3 for months via a professional dealer and before that privately, both are very substantial reductions from new retail, and no one is buying. The simple answer is that almost no one wants to buy these cameras in 2022 (really since they launched, but especially not since 2017). Why that is could be due to any number of reasons. Very poor marketing/public awareness of the system and its capabilities, lenses that while excellent, are huge and still comparatively expensive (and wildly expensive new) compared to comparable systems. Reputations for having a lot of problems, which is mostly undue other than the lens AF issue and CCD aging.  The main issue is that we went through a transition not unlike the transition from film to digital: mirrorless swept in and really knocked out SLRs, and in this case it was especially dramatic, where Fuji and Hasselblad came in and ate Leica's lunch. Buyers interested in technology and price went to Fuji's extremely capable GFX line, and buyers interested in prestige design and nuanced color were tempted by the Hasselblad X series. Buyers needing the ultimate image quality remained with Phase One and Hasselblad. Leica purists in search of a super high image quality Leica no longer had the choice of 18mp in an M9 or 37mp in an S. They have 47mp in the SL2 (which even takes S lenses), 64mp in an M11, 42mp in an M10R and even 47mp in an Q2. The use case of the S system has narrowed to people who already are in the system, SLR purists, people who REALLY want a central shutter but cannot use an X series or Phase One, or the people who are particularly convinced by the image quality of the S lenses. The system is no worse than it ever was...it makes fantastic images with a character that most 35mm systems will struggle to replicate, but it is a system left behind somewhat technologically, but completely left behind by the market. This will not change until Leica completely revamps the system, which is frankly its only hope to avoid being a interesting side note in camera history. As for the wide disparity in pricing, the low prices are a desperate attempt to get anyone to buy the camera, as no one is buying, and the high prices are either people trolling or people who refuse to accept that the camera they bought for close to twenty thousand dollars just a few years ago is now worth a tenth of that. If you don't want to get bitter at Leica, don't ask them what they will pay you for nearly brand new S3, which they still sell for 18,600 euros. Spoiler alert, it is 6000 euros. Caveat Emptor seems to be their motto these days.

Edited December 25, 2022 by Stuart Richardson

[Sarnian]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Buyers interested in technology and price went to Fuji's extremely capable GFX line

I've - partially - turned to the Dark Side and bought myself a used GFX50S (for a steal at £949). In the Springtime I may well go for the GFX100S. That being said, I'm loathed to let go of my S gear mainly due to the 30-90mm lens. Time will tell, I guess. 

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

 … and in this case it was especially dramatic, where Fuji and Hasselblad came in and ate Leica's lunch. 

And while not as popular now, Pentax earlier ate Leica’s breakfast by pricing their new MF digital option near $10k, at a time when Leica had no real competition at $20-25k (top line Phase and Hasselblads were much pricier still). Fuji and Hasselblad then followed with their sub-$10k models.  Leica adjusted the S price point for a period to $16k, but then increased prices again.  The market went the other way, and the AF motor issues sealed the deal.  I guess we’ll see where the S4 fits.

Jeff

 

[Einst_Stein]

5 hours ago, Sarnian said:

I've - partially - turned to the Dark Side and bought myself a used GFX50S (for a steal at £949). In the Springtime I may well go for the GFX100S. That being said, I'm loathed to let go of my S gear mainly due to the 30-90mm lens. Time will tell, I guess. 

How do you compare your GFX and S 007? particularly, in which way S 077 works better, and in which way GFX works better (other than MPs, weight,  and price)., I mean, IQ wise.

Edited December 25, 2022 by Einst_Stein

[Sarnian]

I haven't had the time to test pit them against each other yet. I think the main - and biggest - advantage will be with the GFX50Sii or GFX100/GFX100S and their image stabilization (when shooting handheld). 

Edited December 25, 2022 by Sarnian

[Pieter12]

I can wait for the S4, whenever that may be. I might then invest in a nice used or demo S3 or 007 at a bargain price. Meanwhile, my S 006 is more than enough for what I do.

[bilbrown]

On 12/24/2022 at 2:17 PM, LeicaR10 said:

Einst_Stein,  The used MF market especially for cameas like the S, Fuji and Hasselblad systems have historically shown far greater depreciation than say Leica M cameras and lenses. I once asked my Leica Store owner and very good friend, why so on the depreciation.  He told me, MF is a niche market, not a lot of demand, photographers will only pay what they believe the gear is worth and so the used price points are reflected in the resale market.  I used the S system for over 14 years for my business.  As a pro, I would depreciate the equipment on my business taxes as many pros do.  Others I know only rent/lease the S system for their work and write that expense off too.  One will find when a new S camera arrives on scene is when the greatest value drop occurs.  The resale market on used MF gear plummets by more than 50% on camera bodies and then another 1/3 once the new model has been on market for about a year or so.  Most photographers using the S system take care of the gear.  Its expensive gear and abusing it doesn't make sense if looking for reliablity.  Right now, Camera West has a used mint S3 for about $12K.  Leica Store Miami has two used S007s for $4-5K both in excellent condition.  When I owned the S system, it was very reliable in the field.  Only the AF motor issue caused a hickup for Leica but S lenses are still the best MF lenses made that require no firmware adjustments.  IMO, S lenses with AF motors replaced and used S007 cameras are quite the bargin for anyone wishing to use a niche camera that delivers stunning cinematic look photographs.  The S system is in a league unto itself.  I suspect the S4 system will be another home run for Leica and maybe lower entry price too.  Whether it depeciates like past/present MF camera systems, only the future market will tell us.  Happy Holidays!  r/ Mark

This is true, and I have loved and used my S typ 007 for many years. Before this I rented an S type 006 and S2. However, servicing the camera can be a real bitch. 

 

I recently sent mine in for body armor replacement and Leica sent a laundry list of issues that I didn't expect or notice. Even with the DRAMATIC language. "main body broken" and "eyepiece deformed" – neither of which I or anyone at the Leica Store LA noticed.

Also with this caveat, and I quote:
Please understand that we cannot offer a partial repair on this camera.

 

I thought this was CRAZY, since the camera is such a tank I would have had to have essentially thrown it off a cliff to have any of the issues they quoted. I suspect that the camera was damaged in transit to NJ or Germany but will get to the bottom of it. A CLA seems to be pretty extensive... and expensive (almost the price of a used S 007 body!) So I'm unsure.

I will have the repairs done, likely. It just makes me very upset.

 

 

[LeicaR10]

BillBrown,  I am surprised what Leica Wetzlar wrote about your camera.  You are most likely correct about damage in perhaps store/service handling along the way or at NJ or Germany.  The camera is built like a tank and can take a lot of abuse.  I once watched a fellow S photographer drop his rig.  It must have dropped at least 20 feet down a granite outcrop.  The camera had some cosmetic damage, but it was still in working order and he continued his shoot.  Yours sounds like it got run over by a truck.  Personally, I would ask Wetzlar to confirm the Serial Number of the camera they say is yours for starters.  It could be someone elses or swapped in NJ...who knows.  But its worth asking the question.   I once had an issue where I sent one of my SL lenses for a CLA via Australia to Germany.  It returned with a bent filter rim.  Leica Australia did and investigation and found via their security cameras a person dropped the lens in the shipping department. They apologized and sent me a new lens.  I would think you will find out what happened.  One almost needs to take external photographs and get a signed statement of external condition on the repair order when turning in gear for repair at a dealer as proof.  Actually, the Leica Store in LA should help you get this resolved,  The store is a flagship Leica store. It does have weight with NJ.  The LA store staff know your camera was not taken in the described condition.  If it was damaged as described, the store staff would have noted that on the repair tag and included that damage in the repair estimate. This should work in your favor.  r/ Mark

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[Sarnian]

Last year I bought a used 70mm CS on eBay (for a mere £500?!). I e-mailed Leica to see if it had had a new auto motor fitted and they can back with: "Summarit-S 70mm lens with Serial No 4128753 – I cannot see any AF-Motor replacement. The last time it was here was in September 2020 and couldn’t be repaired anymore due to water damage" (my underlining). Well, it works perfectly!! The seller could have sold it for c.£1,000 more (it's the CS version, remember) if Leica hadn't of been so strident over its apparent condition.  

[BernardC]

6 hours ago, bilbrown said:

I recently sent mine in for body armor replacement and Leica sent a laundry list of issues that I didn't expect or notice. Even with the DRAMATIC language. "main body broken" and "eyepiece deformed" – neither of which I or anyone at the Leica Store LA noticed.

Also with this caveat, and I quote:
Please understand that we cannot offer a partial repair on this camera.

That's just Leica protecting themselves. They list every small amount of wear or damage on receipt, to the level where even the most demanding collector would be impressed. It makes for a horrifying list, but in the end it won't change the amount you pay. I think they've had too many users claim that Leica created damage that was there previously. I'll bet all of that is well documented in case there's a claim.

The note about "partial repairs" is in a similar vein. The estimate is for a full repair, it's not a restaurant menu. They don't want to return a camera that's only partly repaired, and hear complaints later from the person who agreed to that partial repair. Even worse, someone could sell a camera as "recently serviced by Leica," not mentioning that it wasn't fully repaired to Leica's standards. That could get messy, with public accusations, lawsuits, etc., so I understand why Leica won't perform half-a-repair.