Leica M6 TTL 0.58 VF Serial Numbers? (Is my .58x really .58x?)

[jaybeuff]

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2 hours ago, stephen.w said:

If you move the frame preview lever all the way to the left (as you look through the viewfinder), you should bring up just a single set of framelines, for 35mm. Is this where you are also seeing 135mm framelines? Sounds silly to ask, but are you sure you aren't confusing 135mm framelines with the rangefinder patch?

Yeah it’s definitely an extra set of frame lines surrounding the RF patch inside of the 35mm frame lines.  I see it when I have my 35 summicron attached. 

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[Huss]

The .58 vf only has the 35mm frame lines showing when u mount a 35mm lens.  If there are any others, it isn't a .58.

 

[jaybeuff]

So the plot thickens.

I checked the camera carefully against another 0.72 today.  So it appears my finder is ever so slightly wider.  Maybe 8 degree difference field of view.   It's quite subtle but looking at two visual landmarks you can see the finder is slightly wider.  To me this suggests the camera is 0.58 afterall.  However the 28mm framelines in the 0.72 and my 0.58 camera appear the same relative distance from the edge of the optical viewfinder.   

I asked DAG if the parts between 0.72 and 0.58 framelines are different parts or are the same.  He said they are two totally different parts between the two viewfinder magnifications.

He said it could be that since my camera has 35/135 framelines instead of just 35, that somewhere in its history 0.72 framelines and frameline mask may have been installed.  Possibly a mixup by a camera tech.   This could be why the 28 framelines are so close to the edge, and why I have 35/135 framelines.  

[250swb]

6 hours ago, jaybeuff said:

He said it could be that since my camera has 35/135 framelines instead of just 35, that somewhere in its history 0.72 framelines and frameline mask may have been installed.  Possibly a mixup by a camera tech.   This could be why the 28 framelines are so close to the edge, and why I have 35/135 framelines.  

Did DAG say you have 35/135 framelines installed or did you tell him? It's either a confession it happened at his place, given you say you only saw it after coming back from him servicing it, or he's just going along with your interpretation of what you're seeing.

There is perhaps another alternative, some camera and lens combinations allow the lens to go over centre in the mount if the user makes the mistake of keeping the lens release button pressed in while mounting a lens, so not letting the lens simply click into place. This can bring up phantom framelines in the viewfinder, not a 135 if it's a .58 viewfinder, but perhaps the 90 as well as the 35. I assume you've taken the lens off and used the frameline selection lever to count the number of frames you have in the viewfinder (?), but if you do this you can see how phantom framelines appear and disappear as you slowly move the lever, it being possible to balance it between two settings. I don't currently have a camera with a .58 viewfinder to check what combinations come up as it's gradually moved.

Edited December 15, 2022 by 250swb

[Mute-on]

I have a 0.58 MP. The framelines for a 28 on the MP appear approximately the same as framelines for a 35 on my M4 and M2 (both nominally 0.72 mag viewfinders). That is, they are very close to the edge of the frame.  I don’t have an M6 or later 0.72 to compare, but I understand that these would show slightly smaller framelines than an M2 or M4. 
 

There is no 135 frameline showing with 35 in the 0.58, as others have confirmed.  Your camera may have some odd combination of frameline mask and viewfinder magnification, but I have no idea what. 

[69xchange]

It’s not like I don’t believe you, but can you take a picture of the viewfinder showing the 0.58 and then taking a picture of your frame lines with your 35mm lens mounted through the eye piece? 
 

 

thanks

[jaybeuff]

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10 hours ago, 250swb said:

Did DAG say you have 35/135 framelines installed or did you tell him? It's either a confession it happened at his place, given you say you only saw it after coming back from him servicing it, or he's just going along with your interpretation of what you're seeing.

There is perhaps another alternative, some camera and lens combinations allow the lens to go over centre in the mount if the user makes the mistake of keeping the lens release button pressed in while mounting a lens, so not letting the lens simply click into place. This can bring up phantom framelines in the viewfinder, not a 135 if it's a .58 viewfinder, but perhaps the 90 as well as the 35. I assume you've taken the lens off and used the frameline selection lever to count the number of frames you have in the viewfinder (?), but if you do this you can see how phantom framelines appear and disappear as you slowly move the lever, it being possible to balance it between two settings. I don't currently have a camera with a .58 viewfinder to check what combinations come up as it's gradually moved.

I noticed the 135 framelines.  The camera came back from DAG for issues with frameline selector not working properly and precisely because of phantom frame lines.   It works perfectly now.  100% it is 135 framelines.  It’s clearly matching every illustration posted here of 35/135 frame lines on a 0.72. 
 

 

[jaybeuff]

9 hours ago, Mute-on said:

I have a 0.58 MP. The framelines for a 28 on the MP appear approximately the same as framelines for a 35 on my M4 and M2 (both nominally 0.72 mag viewfinders). That is, they are very close to the edge of the frame.  I don’t have an M6 or later 0.72 to compare, but I understand that these would show slightly smaller framelines than an M2 or M4. 
 

There is no 135 frameline showing with 35 in the 0.58, as others have confirmed.  Your camera may have some odd combination of frameline mask and viewfinder magnification, but I have no idea what. 

 

Without glasses, how much space do you see between the 28 frameline and the edge of the finder?    Could you guesstimate in mm or inches?

[jaybeuff]

5 hours ago, 69xchange said:

It’s not like I don’t believe you, but can you take a picture of the viewfinder showing the 0.58 and then taking a picture of your frame lines with your 35mm lens mounted through the eye piece? 
 

 

thanks

 

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[BradS]

…

Edited December 16, 2022 by BradS

[williamj]

On 12/15/2022 at 11:24 AM, jaybeuff said:

So the plot thickens.

I checked the camera carefully against another 0.72 today.  So it appears my finder is ever so slightly wider.  Maybe 8 degree difference field of view.   It's quite subtle but looking at two visual landmarks you can see the finder is slightly wider.  To me this suggests the camera is 0.58 afterall.  However the 28mm framelines in the 0.72 and my 0.58 camera appear the same relative distance from the edge of the optical viewfinder.   

I asked DAG if the parts between 0.72 and 0.58 framelines are different parts or are the same.  He said they are two totally different parts between the two viewfinder magnifications.

He said it could be that since my camera has 35/135 framelines instead of just 35, that somewhere in its history 0.72 framelines and frameline mask may have been installed.  Possibly a mixup by a camera tech.   This could be why the 28 framelines are so close to the edge, and why I have 35/135 framelines.  

Well that's fascinating. If Don's conjecture is correct that says that framing accuracy with your camera is not accurate, that less is included on the negative than is encompassed by the framelines. Maybe when you first got it you found you were chopping off items at the edge of the frame, especially in closeups, and then you adapted by making sure that nothing important was close to the framelines? Everyone knows the framelines are a minimum and as you go to infinity more of the scene is captured, so in some cases this would be a subtle effect. Did you experience anything like that?

[Mute-on]

13 hours ago, jaybeuff said:

 

Without glasses, how much space do you see between the 28 frameline and the edge of the finder?    Could you guesstimate in mm or inches?

If I centre my eye carefully, no more than a couple of mm on all sides with 28mm. I tend to look around the edges to get a better orientation because it’s difficult to see all sides at once. This is very much like my experience with 35mm on an M2. 
The 35mm frameline view you show (with 135 corners) is basically just what I see at 35mm in terms of space around the framelines. In effect, 35 on a 0.58 appears as 50 on a 0.72. Your viewfinder looks like 0.58 to me, but with 135 framelines added. 

[Mute-on]

13 hours ago, jaybeuff said:

 

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Yeah, that’s what 0.58 looks like with 35 framelines, except for the additional 135 corners ….

[250swb]

1 hour ago, Mute-on said:

Yeah, that’s what 0.58 looks like with 35 framelines, except for the additional 135 corners ….

It highlights why Leica left the 135 framelines out of the .58 viewfinder, far too small to compose anything in the frame, but I guess somebody in the past had a cunning plan and added them aftermarket.

[jaybeuff]

1 hour ago, Mute-on said:

Yeah, that’s what 0.58 looks like with 35 framelines, except for the additional 135 corners ….

This shot is deceiving though.  The 24mm lens on my camera phone gives way more space around the viewfinder than I see with my naked eye.

 

I have maybe at most a mm or so around 28 framelines without glasses.  With glasses there’s no space at all around a 28.  

[Mute-on]

25 minutes ago, jaybeuff said:

This shot is deceiving though.  The 24mm lens on my camera phone gives way more space around the viewfinder than I see with my naked eye.

 

I have maybe at most a mm or so around 28 framelines without glasses.  With glasses there’s no space at all around a 28.  

If that’s actually the case, and 28 framelines are pressed hard against the outer edges of the VF, that sounds like a 0.72 with the modern frameline set, which would include 28/90, 50/75 and 35/135. 

[250swb]

1 hour ago, jaybeuff said:

 

 

I have maybe at most a mm or so around 28 framelines without glasses.  With glasses there’s no space at all around a 28.  

"I can see the 28mm frameline with glasses on but there is not a ton of room around it by any means." - post #1

I think perhaps people have been going on your first description and what you could see, that if you use glasses you'll see the 28mm framelines with a .58 but there won't be a ton of (wasted) room outside them. Now there is 'no space at all'. I can see the 28mm frames with 'no space at all' with a .72 finder, which leads me to think the whole thread has been a wild goose chase and yes, you did indeed buy a camera with a .72 viewfinder.

Edited December 16, 2022 by 250swb

[69xchange]

17 hours ago, jaybeuff said:

 

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Which 35mm lens are you using? 35mm Summicron ASPH v2? 
 

maybe if someone here has the same lens and a 0.72 viewfinder, you guys can compare the “viewfinder blockage” with or without hood since we can’t compare in person. For example a 35mm summicron asph v2 with hood could extend into the 35mm frame lines on the bottom right corner of the viewfinder on 0.72 but clear or just barely touch the frame lines on the 0.58. Just an idea that may help really determine which viewfinder you have.. 

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[jaybeuff]

On 12/16/2022 at 4:54 AM, 69xchange said:

Which 35mm lens are you using? 35mm Summicron ASPH v2? 
 

maybe if someone here has the same lens and a 0.72 viewfinder, you guys can compare the “viewfinder blockage” with or without hood since we can’t compare in person. For example a 35mm summicron asph v2 with hood could extend into the 35mm frame lines on the bottom right corner of the viewfinder on 0.72 but clear or just barely touch the frame lines on the 0.58. Just an idea that may help really determine which viewfinder you have.. 

That’s actually a good idea.  I have a 35mm Summicron V4

Edited December 18, 2022 by jaybeuff