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Anyone here moved from an M9 to an M10r or maybe even vice versa?


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3 minutes ago, M Street Photographer said:

did some research, it was knopfler1976 in this thread. I messed things up. Sorry.

No apology necessary at all.

This is why when I play the comparison game I always shoot the same thing at the same time with the same lens, it's a fun (yet silly) game and one I find works best with the least amount of variables as possible

 

 

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  • 5 months later...

Hello, 

 

New to this forum ( I see that this is a cold thread, but if anyone can help would be grateful). I have an M9 and an M10r which usually go together, most often one with a summicron 50 and the other with a 28.  Because I work by projects, having them color matched is a must. I can make an M10r file look like an M9 in post, but it takes quite some work, and have been looking for a starting point for the 10r that is close to the 9. Is C1 the best option? The Adobe profiles aren’t particularly close. 

I have a free C1 version for another camera, but obviously it won’t edit Leica files, so I would have to buy a one time C1 license, but would be happy to do so if that solves the problem. Which profile, in your opinion should be applied to the M10r files to get closest to the M9? 
 

Thanks in advance 

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Thank you Chris. I have a free C1 license for a Phase One, but obviously it is capped and does not work with other brands. I imported a couple of test files and whilst it imports them, the sliders won’t move. 

But your suggestion is excellent. I will download a test version and see if I can match the colors, before committing to buying. I will do a one time purchase of C1 23 rather than paying a subscription.  

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12 hours ago, irenedp said:

Hello, 

 

New to this forum ( I see that this is a cold thread, but if anyone can help would be grateful). I have an M9 and an M10r which usually go together, most often one with a summicron 50 and the other with a 28.  Because I work by projects, having them color matched is a must. I can make an M10r file look like an M9 in post, but it takes quite some work, and have been looking for a starting point for the 10r that is close to the 9. Is C1 the best option? The Adobe profiles aren’t particularly close. 

I have a free C1 version for another camera, but obviously it won’t edit Leica files, so I would have to buy a one time C1 license, but would be happy to do so if that solves the problem. Which profile, in your opinion should be applied to the M10r files to get closest to the M9? 
 

Thanks in advance 

You might want to look at Cobalt who offer various simulations including the M9

There’s also tools like Lumariver that enable you to create creative profile solutions based on your own tastes, but it’s quite a lot of work if you’re starting from zero experience (which maybe you’re not)

I own the m9 and 10r and lightroom and C1 v22, and I personally would not say that either LR or C1 made the 9/10r files more the same than the other. More like sometimes they look a bit close and other times they’re miles apart. It all comes down to how many shots you’re comparing… 

FWIW it’s generally considered impossible to make camera A render exactly the same as camera B, and I fear comparing a 2009 vintage sensor with a 2020 one might be a added complication, it’s not like trying to get a X-T2 to render like a X-Pro2 which are close to begin with.

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Adam, thank you. I will look into both options.  Matching cameras is, as you say, a difficult job, but I’ve been particularly frustrated with these two.  It is, I suppose, a quirk of my type of work;  it becomes very obvious when you have images of the same location and same session taken with them. I usually edit on Photoshop -either LR or C1 are mere starting points-, and am decent at it, but it would be a great help if I could find closer starting points for those two (Or else, get a second M9 with a changed sensor and get rid of the 10r. But I really like it and the Visoflex is a great help with the 28 and the 75). 

I found that the two images you posted from both in C1 were very close -more saturated the one of the M9, but a very similar tonal range-. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, irenedp said:

Thank you Chris. I have a free C1 license for a Phase One, but obviously it is capped and does not work with other brands. I imported a couple of test files and whilst it imports them, the sliders won’t move. 

But your suggestion is excellent. I will download a test version and see if I can match the colors, before committing to buying. I will do a one time purchase of C1 23 rather than paying a subscription.  

Have you tried making your own profile(s) for different lighting conditions (e.g., using ColorChecker) and saving them as default import and/or presets?  Takes time and not perfect, but once established, could at least provide a good starting point.

Jeff

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4 hours ago, irenedp said:

Adam, thank you. I will look into both options.  Matching cameras is, as you say, a difficult job, but I’ve been particularly frustrated with these two.  It is, I suppose, a quirk of my type of work;  it becomes very obvious when you have images of the same location and same session taken with them. I usually edit on Photoshop -either LR or C1 are mere starting points-, and am decent at it, but it would be a great help if I could find closer starting points for those two (Or else, get a second M9 with a changed sensor and get rid of the 10r. But I really like it and the Visoflex is a great help with the 28 and the 75). 

I found that the two images you posted from both in C1 were very close -more saturated the one of the M9, but a very similar tonal range-. 

 

 

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C1 v22 M9 (left) and M10R

 

LR 'Leica Embedded' Profile M9 (left) and M10R

LR 'Adobe Color' Profile M9 (left) and M10R

All zero edits and AWB, shot at the same time with the same lens (well minus the time to swap the lens between the cameras)

The take away here for me (OMMV) is just how much difference the profile used by the RAW app changes the picture (look at the difference in patch c4 between adobe and Leica's M9 profile for example)

Worth mentioning at this point that a color checker chart is a lot more useful to a profile creating app than it is the human eye in determining colour differences

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Have you tried making your own profile(s) for different lighting conditions (e.g., using ColorChecker) and saving them as default import and/or presets?  Takes time and not perfect, but once established, could at least provide a good starting point.

Jeff

Absolutely! In fact using the camera calibration sliders within LR/ACR is a great way to drastically alter the colours, by effectively tweaking adobe's D50 transformation (from the standard illuminants) on the fly.

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M9 + Leica's embedded M9 profile (generally my go to with the M9)

 

M10R + Leica's embedded M10R profile

 

M10R + Leica's embedded M10R profile with tweaks using the camera calibration sliders... and I don't claim an exact match here just closing the gap a little bit

Or course in C1 you can create new camera profiles based on colour edits, so I think that ultimately it's about the capabilities of the app and its user.

 

As a general rule of thumb what separates camera A from camera B, and even pictures of the same thing all taken with camera A, but at different times is the WB algorithm... people like to dismiss WB as unimportant to RAW shooters (and I get that, especially monochrom shooters !!!!), but the 3x1 matrix of the as shoot neutral tag in the RAW is used as the base calculation for the two 3x3 matrices that perform the mapping from standard illuminants to camera RAW colours.

So WB is actually a dynamic value used to derive CIEXYZ_D50 values from a fixed set of matrices... so pretty important

 

 

 

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and finally.... so a while back I was with the M9 and I saw a pretty red scooter, so I snapped it!! Then quite some time afterwards I saw the scooter in the same place and I snapped it again! But the second time I had the 10R and a different lens...

So that's not at all scientific but I suspect actually quite indicative of many people wishing their new camera rendered like the M9 they used to have

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The M10R one has the Leica profile (as does the M9 one) and the same tweaks I did to it in my post above...

For my (not entirely unbiased) opinion... these look like two shots of the same thing, shot weeks apart, at different times of the day, with different weather and with different lenses... but they don't scream different cameras...

And for my €0.02, that's the best anyone can hope for in matching the look of one camera with a different camera... namely, yeah that'll do, close enough

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6 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Yup… and ColorChecker has multiple uses for both profiling and white balance.

Jeff

They're the same thing really...

WhiteBalance * ColorMatrix = colours

(that's a hideous over simplification)

When we use (say) a whibal card to set the WB we get a reading based on our actual camera in that actual light

When we use a color checker to make a profile we're making a new ColorMatrix based on our actual camera in that actual light

 

 

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I'm always surprised the particular lenses aren't mentioned.  It's always not discussed, just the camera and light when making profiles.

Camera lenses do have an affect on image colour, everything else being the same.

Edited by david strachan
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In the past I created profiles with the color checker passport to match two Fujis -an Xt2 and the original GFX 50s- and it worked well.  I did that again with the GFX 100 and my S2 about a year ago and I didn’t get great results, but it’s definitely worth a try as the cost would be zero. 

 

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it can be done in post. These two, taken the same day, could have come from the same camera. This one was easy, other times it involves significantly more work. Lenses are two Summicrons, a 28 and a 50. 

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Edited by irenedp
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I was at first disappointed when I moved from m9 to thr 240 a decade or so back. I then spent a bit of time to align the colour profile to something I liked. The same thing happened from 240 to m10 but not quite as severe both being more similar tech  

On another note I saw that pumpkin and many others in the London Victoria Miro gallary 5 years back! It gets around! 

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This is supposed to be the “base” location, at Naoshima Island, in Japan.  But it is not the original pumpkin, which was destroyed in a storm. This is a replacement 

Edited by irenedp
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