Leica announced SL discounts - precursor to SL3 or end of line?

[LBJ2]

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I'm still hoping to see an SL2 vs SL2-S color fidelity comparison at higher ISO. ( As I commented already, I own the SL2, but not the SL2-S) If anyone is inclined but would rather send to me directly, please send a msg. Thanks in advance. 

[hdmesa]

4 hours ago, BernardC said:

PtP is user-generated data. Everybody who submits numbers is using a different (uncalibrated) process. The idea is that errors will eventually cancel-out, given a high number of submissions. That's not a safe assumption for low-volume cameras. On the other hand, DXO rates the S1r sensor highest among "full-frame" sensors. They at least have the benefit of testing all sensors under the same conditions.

I didn't say that the SL2 sensor was BSI, I only said that The source fab makes BSI sensors for full-frame cameras. Many people assume that "BSI=Sony", but that has never been the case.

Quote from P2P, emphasis mine: Data is measured from raw files taken to my specifications and contributed by people from around the world.

P2P is much more highly respected than DXO. Even with DXO, you have to look to the Q2 sensor, not the S1R. The S1R is using baked-in noise reduction at low ISOs to boost its dynamic range score, the same way Canon does for the R5. That is not actual sensor performance. Note the inverted triangles, which indicate noise reduction being applied to the RAW in-camera:

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica Q2,Panasonic Lumix DC-S1R

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[hdmesa]

3 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

I'm still hoping to see an SL2 vs SL2-S color fidelity comparison at higher ISO. ( As I commented already, I own the SL2, but not the SL2-S) If anyone is inclined but would rather send to me directly, please send a msg. Thanks in advance. 

 

[hdmesa]

3 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

I'm still hoping to see an SL2 vs SL2-S color fidelity comparison at higher ISO. ( As I commented already, I own the SL2, but not the SL2-S) If anyone is inclined but would rather send to me directly, please send a msg. Thanks in advance. 

Another:

https://leica-akademie.com.au/sl2-s-at-high-iso/

[LBJ2]

36 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

 

 

34 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Another:

https://leica-akademie.com.au/sl2-s-at-high-iso/

Very good! I would never have found these otherwise. Thank you for posting 👍🏼

[hansvons]

5 hours ago, mzbe said:

I tend to be overly sensitive to digital noise, e.g. you will more often than not find my M11 'stuck' at ISO 64

Interesting. In cinema land, most DOPs want the opposite. They want a subtle digital texture that gives the audience's eye something to hold on to, even if things are out of focus. And that is texture/grain, as it isn't affected by focus. In LR/C1, noise can be desaturated, making it much more pleasant.

[hansvons]

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5 hours ago, mzbe said:

SL2-S sensor has a special quality (just due to 'bigger pixels'?) where you are getting almost more than what you would thought possible from a Bayer sensor. Best I have ever seen (Nikon Z6 II might be at parity).

I agree. That's why I've never looked for resolution but good pixels. Arri left the competition far behind in the last ten years with one sensor (Alev III) and a resolution below 4K in S35mm, which amounts roughly to 5,5K/20MP full frame. Cinematographers don't look at the sensor's resolution but rather at its colour fidelity, especially skin tones, juice in the shadows, highlights roll-off, and texture. Larger pixel pitch = better fidelity. Please note that cinematography is often challenged with exposing images in environments that need moody lighting on a relatively low level. Every quarter stop counts.

As a fun fact, Arri only managed 2022 to release its first 4k camera in the S35mm format. All of the competitors did this about ten years ago. There's a reason for that.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, hansvons said:

Interesting. In cinema land, most DOPs want the opposite. They want a subtle digital texture that gives the audience's eye something to hold on to, even if things are out of focus. And that is texture/grain, as it isn't affected by focus. In LR/C1, noise can be desaturated, making it much more pleasant.

SL2-S in combination with the latest DxO PhotoLab 6 at very high ISO is 'a bit behind acceptable margins' for my use, perhaps less of an issue when printed and not pixel-peeping on screen.

E.g. this is at ISO 100000 (100% magnification - may have to click on image for 1:1 size, sorry about the usual forum-related quality reduction):

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Edited December 2, 2022 by mzbe

[jonoslack]

14 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

 

Very good! I would never have found these otherwise. Thank you for posting 👍🏼

Hah - I'd even forgotten doing it!

all the best

[BernardC]

16 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Quote from P2P, emphasis mine: Data is measured from raw files taken to my specifications and contributed by people from around the world.

That's what I was saying, I'm not sure where you see a difference? PtP scores are contributed by punters around the world, each using a different lens, a different (uncalibrated) monitor, in a different room, with different lighting.

You know how hard it is to get two uncalibrated monitors to match when they are next to each other? Imagine doing that halfway around the world, with no visual feedback! Never mind that it's nearly impossible to measure the dynamic range of a sensor in a lit room with an unknown lens. Even a tiny amount of ambient light or dust can make a stop or two of difference in your readings.

As I explained earlier, the theory behind PtP is that errors will cancel-out because of crowd-sourcing. Maybe that's the case with mass-market cameras, but Leica scores appear sporadically, months or years after a camera is released. That's surefire evidence that they have a small number of data submissions, maybe only one.

DxO sucks in different ways, but at least they are consistent.

[hdmesa]

19 minutes ago, BernardC said:

That's what I was saying, I'm not sure where you see a difference? PtP scores are contributed by punters around the world, each using a different lens, a different (uncalibrated) monitor, in a different room, with different lighting.

You know how hard it is to get two uncalibrated monitors to match when they are next to each other? Imagine doing that halfway around the world, with no visual feedback! Never mind that it's nearly impossible to measure the dynamic range of a sensor in a lit room with an unknown lens. Even a tiny amount of ambient light or dust can make a stop or two of difference in your readings.

As I explained earlier, the theory behind PtP is that errors will cancel-out because of crowd-sourcing. Maybe that's the case with mass-market cameras, but Leica scores appear sporadically, months or years after a camera is released. That's surefire evidence that they have a small number of data submissions, maybe only one.

DxO sucks in different ways, but at least they are consistent.

P2P results are the best we have IMO, regardless. But my main point was you can’t say the SL2 performance for DR is like the S1R since the S1R is cheating with baked in noise reduction. The SL2 sensor DR is closer to the Q2.

[John Smith]

15 hours ago, hansvons said:

 In LR/C1, noise can be desaturated, making it much more pleasant.

Now that's interesting. How do you do that? I use C1 and never heard of desaturating noise. 

[Photoworks]

10 hours ago, John Smith said:

Now that's interesting. How do you do that? I use C1 and never heard of desaturating noise. 

it is probably the setting in noise reduction , Color noise.

That should be always active.

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[Archiver]

On 11/15/2022 at 2:43 PM, LeicaR10 said:

Photoworks,  The S system is designed for a small market niche; Fashion, Portrait, Landscape and maybe a couple others.  It is a truly a professional camera for those needing high resolution, accurate color, very large files for graphics, billboards, fine art prints.  The S camera saved Leica and I was told the company is certainly committed to it. The decade plus of my use in business, it delivered in spades.  The S camera and lenses do not render like the SL system.  It has a cinematic look and that IMO makes is truly unique.  My clients would not buy prints unless the photograph was created with a Leica S camera and lenses. Very selective clients that voted with their black AMEX cards.  The S camera is not a prosumer camera.

As an aside, the only time I've seen a Leica S in the wild was in the hands of a tourist! He was walking around the Atrium at Federation Square in Melbourne, taking photos at the Ian Potter Centre, which is the Australian art branch of the National Gallery of Victoria. I had my M9 with me, and complimented him on the S. He said that it is 'the best travel camera'! If I had the niche use and budget, I would definitely look into the S system.

[hansvons]

10 hours ago, Photoworks said:

20 hours ago, John Smith said:

Now that's interesting. How do you do that? I use C1 and never heard of desaturating noise. 

it is probably the setting in noise reduction , Color noise.

That should be always active.

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Precisely. Always on. Can’t see a reason of not using it and all times.

[John Smith]

58 minutes ago, hansvons said:

Precisely. Always on. Can’t see a reason of not using it and all times.

I went through my C1 library. I think I looked into that years and years ago. Always on by default so I had forgotten about it. But thanks again for mentioning it.

[stout_trapdoor9]

Well, I guess I can finish up this thread. I received my SL2-S a week ago. The prices were just too good to resist.  My Voigtlander Nokton 50/1 now has a death grip on it and refuses to come off - I tried to persuade it to take a break so I could try the Nokton 35/1.2 III or Summilux 35/1.4 FLE, but it just said "Duuuuuuuuuddddeeee.... so easy to focus and shoot at f1.... Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuddddeeee." Back to Canada for winter break, so time to try out the weather resistance and battery life. I've got two batteries, but I think a full day of shooting is going to eat three.

[stout_trapdoor9]

Can't get enough of that weather sealing, AWB also performed very well in a variety of difficult lighting situations.

Leica SL2-S Voigtlander Nokton 50/1 1/250/s ISO 640 f4,8.

 

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[stout_trapdoor9]

This is a cool camera. Leica SL2-S Voigtlander Nokton 50/1 ISO 2500 f/16 1/100s.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount