Printing Big with S vs others

[robb]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I’m looking to add a higher mp camera for some special projects with environmental portraits with strobe on location not a studio.

I use my SL2 cameras for most of my work and also use the multishot mode for images of places (not portraits).

I’m looking at the S3 for this use along with the hassy x2d.  Phase One could also be a solution but I’m not a fan of its higher weight, size, and cost.  I’m not a fan of the Fuji build.  I love my SL2 cameras.  But I would like leaf shutters for these images and don’t want to wait on an SL3, SL4 or S4.  All of these may never materialize.

What size prints do you think would not be a problem using these options?  Is there a rule of thumb for printing?  I think in the past I’ve tried to stick with 144ppi max but I don’t remember what my clients have used with the images as I’ve let them run with the details.  I just send them the finished files.

with my SL2 in multishot mode, I’ve had prints as large as about 10’ to 12’ wide printed for trade shows that looked very nice.  I guess my goal would be a portrait some full body, some closer in) around 6 to 8’ on the long edge that could still be enjoyed from about 2 to 6 feet away.    I owned a leaf credo 80mp back previously that did fairly well but the largest I ever printed back then was 6’.  
What max size do the photographers max out at for big gallery displays like Platon, Mark Mann, Joey L, etc?

I visited the Leica factory in Germany and they had many large portraits printed around their windows of famous artists in B&W.  I’m guessing shot with the S3 but did not ask specifics.  I had too many other things to be excited about while there…

Appreciate any thoughts and experience on this.

Robb

Edited October 8, 2022 by robb

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[LeicaR10]

Robb,  I sent you a PM so not to derail your OP thread.  r/ Mark

[mgrayson3]

9 hours ago, robb said:

I’m looking to add a higher mp camera for some special projects with environmental portraits with strobe on location not a studio.

I use my SL2 cameras for most of my work and also use the multishot mode for images of places (not portraits).

I’m looking at the S3 for this use along with the hassy x2d.  Phase One could also be a solution but I’m not a fan of its higher weight, size, and cost.  I’m not a fan of the Fuji build.  I love my SL2 cameras.  But I would like leaf shutters for these images and don’t want to wait on an SL3, SL4 or S4.  All of these may never materialize.

What size prints do you think would not be a problem using these options?  Is there a rule of thumb for printing?  I think in the past I’ve tried to stick with 144ppi max but I don’t remember what my clients have used with the images as I’ve let them run with the details.  I just send them the finished files.

with my SL2 in multishot mode, I’ve had prints as large as about 10’ to 12’ wide printed for trade shows that looked very nice.  I guess my goal would be a portrait some full body, some closer in) around 6 to 8’ on the long edge that could still be enjoyed from about 2 to 6 feet away.    I owned a leaf credo 80mp back previously that did fairly well but the largest I ever printed back then was 6’.  
What max size do the photographers max out at for big gallery displays like Platon, Mark Mann, Joey L, etc?

I visited the Leica factory in Germany and they had many large portraits printed around their windows of famous artists in B&W.  I’m guessing shot with the S3 but did not ask specifics.  I had too many other things to be excited about while there…

Appreciate any thoughts and experience on this.

Robb

Mark Mann shoots people, so resolution isn't critical. But I've seen life-size prints of dancers from a 37.5MP S(007).They are stunning, and are the largest prints of his I've seen.

Matt

 

[shanefking]

This sounds like an awesome project.

You may want to reach out to photographer John Mireles, he does  large scale (6’-15’) portraits and primarily uses the Hasselblad X2d if I recall correctly.  
http://www.jraymondm.com

 

I seem to recall seeing black and white work from an M9 printed to about 10’ across at a museum/exhibition.  Sure it was blown up and chunky at 2’ away, but at a normal viewing distance it didn’t seem to interfere with the experience.  Which is to say, I think if your images are striking the resolution doesn’t matter as much as having a camera that you enjoy working with, since all the options you listed are even more optimized for large prints.  And I believe adobe has significantly improved photoshop’s up-res capability.
 

I think the S3 could easily handle what you describe.  It might be worth testing by blowing up a file to the size you would want, and making a 16”x20” print of a crop just to see how it registers in the real world.

 

 

[mgrayson3]

I did the blow-up crop test on the S(007) vs the S3. At 5’ wide, no difference. At 7’ wide, you had to be within 1 foot of the print to see a difference. At 10’ it was getting obvious. 

Edited October 8, 2022 by mgrayson3

[robb]

3 hours ago, shanefking said:

This sounds like an awesome project.

You may want to reach out to photographer John Mireles, he does  large scale (6’-15’) portraits and primarily uses the Hasselblad X2d if I recall correctly.  
http://www.jraymondm.com

 

I seem to recall seeing black and white work from an M9 printed to about 10’ across at a museum/exhibition.  Sure it was blown up and chunky at 2’ away, but at a normal viewing distance it didn’t seem to interfere with the experience.  Which is to say, I think if your images are striking the resolution doesn’t matter as much as having a camera that you enjoy working with, since all the options you listed are even more optimized for large prints.  And I believe adobe has significantly improved photoshop’s up-res capability.
 

I think the S3 could easily handle what you describe.  It might be worth testing by blowing up a file to the size you would want, and making a 16”x20” print of a crop just to see how it registers in the real world.

 

 

I appreciate the link.  I think the size of his exhibit prints is what I am after.  I’ll send him a note on his printing experience.  
I think you hit it on the head that you have to use the camera system that basically you love to use and gets out of your way.  Will be exciting 2023 to see what Leica comes up with for next models in SL and S line.

Robb

 

 

[robb]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

2 hours ago, mgrayson3 said:

I did the blow-up crop test on the S(007) vs the S3. At 5’ wide, no difference. At 7’ wide, you had to be within 1 foot of the print to see a difference. At 10’ it was getting obvious. 

Up to 10’ with S3 sounds pretty good though.  Any photo exhibits in NYC you’d recommend showing large prints while I am in town?  

Robb

[Pieter12]

I've had pretty good results using Topaz AI to res up files. Never printed anything enormous, though. But they look fine on screen.

[Stuart Richardson]

I work as an exhibition printer and owned the S3 as well as the SL2. I found that the SL2, if anything, looked a bit better in large prints. This is primarily because it has better lenses and has a more natural looking detail structure at 100%, whereas the pixels in the S3 look both more digital and softer in my opinion. If I were you, I would stick with the SL2, or go with a 100mp camera like the Hasselblad or GFX...or frankly Phase One if you are planning to print that large regularly. At the end of the day, however, the person doing the printing and the lenses you use are at least as important as the camera choice at this level.

[robb]

I appreciate all the good feedback and info.

Based on this and so many other threads I’ve been able to soak up, I am planning on adding an S3 end of the year for some portrait projects with strobes.

I’d like to trade two of my M lenses for the any of the following S lenses - 35 CS, 45 CS, 70 CS, 120 CS plus any dollar differences.

M 28 asph summicron and M 90 apo asph summicron mint in boxes.  28 has warranty for a year or so left.  I’ll post an ad up but thought I would find some takers here first that aren’t using their CS lenses as much and might want something smaller… Happy to send more info and meet up in the US as I am regularly on the road.  Send me a pm.  Thanks.

Robb

[LeicaR10]

Robb,  You might want to put an ad in the Leica Forum Classifieds for your two M lenses.  Most likely place to get more visibilty...don't forget the old saying: "Never sell a Leica lens"....just saying.  r/ Mark

Edited October 12, 2022 by LeicaR10

[01af]

Am 8.10.2022 um 05:12 schrieb robb:

I’m looking to add a higher megapixel camera for some special projects with environmental portraits with strobe on location, not a studio.

I use my SL2 cameras for most of my work [...]  I’m looking at the S3 for this use along with the Hasselblad X2D. [...]  I love my SL2 cameras.  But I would like leaf shutters for these images ...

Leaf shutters are useful for strobe work but seriously limit your camera choices.  Leica S and Hasselblad X are the only options that come to my mind.  Well ... and large-format view cameras with 8×10" film ...

But then, for portraiture you don't really need particularly fast shutter speeds.  So leaf shutters are not utterly required.  I'd suggest you just stick to your Leica SL2 cameras.  Even a Leica M11 might be an option.  I think you should also reconsider your aversion against Fujifilm; their GFX system offers up to 100 MP and has really good lenses (albeit no leaf shutters).

.

Am 8.10.2022 um 05:12 schrieb robb:

What size prints do you think would not be a problem using these options?  Is there a rule of thumb for printing?  I think in the past I’ve tried to stick with 144 PPI max ...

Don't get obsessed with PPI values.  For really big prints, you'll get away with surprisingly low PPI counts.  After all, you can always upscale your files with software such as Topaz Gigapixel AI or similar and then apply some clever tricks such as adding subliminal noise to conceal the pixel structure (if required).

.

Am 8.10.2022 um 05:12 schrieb robb:

I visited the Leica factory in Germany and they had many large portraits printed around their windows of famous artists in B&W.  I’m guessing shot with the S3 ...

Your guess is wrong.  Those large-size B&W portrait prints are presented in the Leica Camera building's front windows for (at least) four years now.  Neither Leica S3 nor Leica SL2 existed back then.  I guess they were taken with Leica S2 or S (37.5 MP) ... or one of the M or SL cameras (24 MP).

[robb]

Thanks for your thoughts.

my need for leaf shutters is for outdoor strobe in daylight situations.  I’m old school with profoto packs and heads.  I don’t use ttl.  I don’t plan on using HSS but I’ll see how the learning curve goes.  I’ve owned the phase xf with a leaf credo 80 back and an H4.  I’m not likely to go back that route because of the weight primarily.  If I need 1/250th or slower, I can just grab the SL2.
 

I'm adding another tool.  I’ll still use the SL2 and SL2-S for a ton of my work.  Both of those do the duties of the M cameras better to me with better results using m lenses (obviously in my opinion).  So I’m not really looking at the m11 either.  To me the SL lineup is that good.  And the lenses, are out of this world.
 

I need to enjoy the tools I work with.  I’ve shot with Nikon and canon gear along with Leica M for 35 years along with many other roll and sheet film cameras. There is nothing exciting about using the Fuji 100mp to me.  I’ve handled it and that 2-3 minute experience was all I needed to see it and it’s lenses were not for me.  I’ve also owned several Fuji x100 camera variants and let’s face it, some features are nice but they aren’t m cameras with their focusing and build.  So I sold them along the way.  I wish Fuji well.  Loved their film over all others and especially the gx617.  Best photo memories I ever had with that camera.
 

your points make sense on the printing and the images displayed at the factory.  I’ll look at all options.  
Robb

[250swb]

On 10/8/2022 at 4:12 AM, robb said:

 

Appreciate any thoughts and experience on this.

 

Just a thought but you could use 'Super Resolution' in ACR/Photoshop, creating large files to make very large prints from smaller files is exactly what it is for,

[Eclectic Man]

The largest prints I've ever seen were by Andreas Gursky (https://www.andreasgursky.com/en ), but he uses  5x7 camera with sheet film, scanned.

Timo Lieber (http://www.timolieber.com ) used a 100mp Phase One camera (and a gyroscopic stabiliser) for his 'Thaw' project.

Both their photos are superb, but from what you've posted, I suspect that neither is the route you want to go down

[robb]

6 hours ago, Eclectic Man said:

The largest prints I've ever seen were by Andreas Gursky (https://www.andreasgursky.com/en ), but he uses  5x7 camera with sheet film, scanned.

Timo Lieber (http://www.timolieber.com ) used a 100mp Phase One camera (and a gyroscopic stabiliser) for his 'Thaw' project.

Both their photos are superb, but from what you've posted, I suspect that neither is the route you want to go down

Absolutely stunning work.  Appreciate the links and inspiration.

Robb

[steveash]

It’s quite hard to recommend an S3 over an X2D. Both the lenses and sensor of the X2D will out resolve the S3 and the specifications are very different. I have both their predecessors and like them both for different reasons.

They render images in quite a different way and even a different aspect ratio. I prefer to shoot with the simplicity and ergonomics of the S. The S gives more contrast and a more three dimensional image while the X1D has beautiful smooth tones and more natural colours. 

The X1D benefits from many autofocus points and the ability to switch to a zoomed in viewfinder when you touch the focus ring of a native lens. It’s also occasionally buggy. It can overheat if used heavily.

The X2D is new and I wouldn’t expect it to work perfectly without the occasional bug. I’d certainly want a backup for critical work. The S3 however is well developed and should be reliable. Factory support of both Leica and Hasselblad is good but slow. Leica however benefits from their own dealers who may well lend you a camera at their discretion.

Id highly recommend trying them first if you get the opportunity.

[albireo_double]

Let me chip in, with some delay. Even for strobe work on location, the X2D (and the SL2) will have the advantage of the IBIS. While the S3 remains capable, you need to be careful about shutter speeds when mixing ambient and strobe (unless the S3 is on a tripod which I find impractical). I did a shoot with a model two years ago, in a an Autumn forest, low light, low temperature (freezing hands). Was pushing my luck with 1/125-250s and the 70mm CS lens. Up to half the images ended up unusable because of motion blur that I did not see on the camera display but was obvious later when reviewed on a big monitor. Parts of the image where the strobe was more prominent were of course sharp while other areas were blurred. These same shutters speeds were absolutely fine when I shot with my S2L2 in a similar scenario (with a variable ND filter). Against my initial reservations, I found using the variable ND filter on the SL2 very easy and practical when using strobes on location - set the camera in M mode, ISO 100, 1/250s (max sync), open the Summilux SL to 1.4 - then use the variable ND filter to dial in the perfect exposure for ambient (the camera still autofocuses fine, exposure simulation in the EVF is really helpful). Fire the strobe, adjust strength on the remote trigger for the desired blend. Depending on distance/modifier/f-stop, may require a strobe with some oomph (Profoto B1 or stronger). Also, AF on the S3 is OK until you start shooting through tree branches or similar - then it is anybody's guess what the S3's AF point will select as its focus. The X2D and the SL2 will be easier in this regard (adjustable AF point size and position plus higher res display for checking images). Another consideration is the aspect ratio - as I end up cropping most portrait/people images to 4x5 (Instagram) I end up wasting more resolution with the Leicas then I would with the X2D or Phase One. 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Einst_Stein]

On 10/7/2022 at 8:12 PM, robb said:

I’m looking to add a higher mp camera for some special projects with environmental portraits with strobe on location not a studio.

I use my SL2 cameras for most of my work and also use the multishot mode for images of places (not portraits).

I’m looking at the S3 for this use along with the hassy x2d.  Phase One could also be a solution but I’m not a fan of its higher weight, size, and cost.  I’m not a fan of the Fuji build.  I love my SL2 cameras.  But I would like leaf shutters for these images and don’t want to wait on an SL3, SL4 or S4.  All of these may never materialize.

What size prints do you think would not be a problem using these options?  Is there a rule of thumb for printing?  I think in the past I’ve tried to stick with 144ppi max but I don’t remember what my clients have used with the images as I’ve let them run with the details.  I just send them the finished files.

with my SL2 in multishot mode, I’ve had prints as large as about 10’ to 12’ wide printed for trade shows that looked very nice.  I guess my goal would be a portrait some full body, some closer in) around 6 to 8’ on the long edge that could still be enjoyed from about 2 to 6 feet away.    I owned a leaf credo 80mp back previously that did fairly well but the largest I ever printed back then was 6’.  
What max size do the photographers max out at for big gallery displays like Platon, Mark Mann, Joey L, etc?

I visited the Leica factory in Germany and they had many large portraits printed around their windows of famous artists in B&W.  I’m guessing shot with the S3 but did not ask specifics.  I had too many other things to be excited about while there…

Appreciate any thoughts and experience on this.

Robb

What is the planed viewing distance?

About 5-6 years ago on an air flight, I have met a professional photographer, he has galleries showing 12-feet wide Prints. Full frame digital. 
 

You might want to visit your local professional photo printing shop. There is one near me called Bay Photo Lab. There your can see very large print, they may tell you what cameras were used for the prints.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Einst_Stein