21mm on Leica M (any M) without EVF, OVF

[Jeff S]

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36 minutes ago, RexGig0 said:

Eyeglasses do limit what one can see through the viewfinder. The distance of the eyeglass lenses, from the eyeball, is a factor. The thickness of the eyeglass lenses is a factor. These two factors vary, with the individual shooter. Different M cameras will have differing fields of view, adding another factor. 

 

Eyeglass frames can also vary in thickness and flexibility, which can impact one’s ability to comfortably press against the VF.  

Schaller discusses his prior use of an external viewfinder when learning to use the 24mm lens (at about 6:30 in linked video), but that framing is second nature to him now without relying on the VF. He often shoots from the hip or holds the camera like a phone camera if the scene warrants; whatever it takes.  
 

I personally limit my my M shooting to 28mm at the widest, but that’s because of how I like to see and frame my subjects, not because of camera constraints.  As such, it’s rare that I enjoy pics from others using wider focal lengths (especially landscapes), although there are some exceptions, some of Schaller’s work included.

Jeff

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[Jared]

For me, the 21mm is either for landscapes or architecture. Those are the only things I use it for. For either of those two uses, getting the framing exactly right is absolutely critical, so I wouldn’t want to use the 21mm without either the EVF or Liveview. With a portrait lens, I don’t care much if I am composing a bit loosely and cropping afterwards—it’s not going to change the overall result. But with a 21mm? Where I have important foreground elements at less than 1m and important background elements at infinity? Changing my composition by just a couple inches can have a profound impact. I want exact framing when using a very wide angle. Others who are using the lens differently obviously have different requirements. That’s likely why so many are successful just approximating. Wouldn’t work for me—not with that focal length. 

[Ernstk]

The lens that I use 80% of the time on my M-P 240 is my 2.8/21 Elmarit M.

I've never used live view or any kind of external finder. With a little practice, it's relatively easy to 'see' the field of view from the viewfinder. Once you've learned what this looks like, it brings a huge amount of flexibility in how you shoot, whether that's at eye level, chest, hip or with hands outstretched.

I also feel that 21mm on a full frame rangefinder is a magical combination.

Ernst

[northernlights]

I understand the phrase: “Different tools for different things/use”

If the M240 is the only camera for a certain season, for whatever reasons. I gather for UWA (maybe until 21mm), we can get away without an EVF or OVF. 

1) How about 15-18mm? There is too much to estimate and how things appear really very far away and smaller relative to the frame - composition. 

2) How about >75mm? Say 135mm, 200mm. Non-range-finder coupled? 

I guess for (2), I will be forced to do LV and perhaps more ergonomically, using an EVF. I shot with the Nikon AF-S 300mm f4 IF-ED mounted on the M240, TL2, and manually focused. I used the LCD because in Mgt previous M240 in 2017 when I didn’t have the EVF. On the TL2, I left the visoflex in the car. Got a shot 1 out of every 4 or 5. For the birds in air 1 of every 10. It was really bad. 

[pgk]

The first 21mm M lenses had an OVF available for use on M cameras. Technically OVFs are a compromise but given enough experience they work well enough (I've used 21mm M lenses for decades) and composition, whilst not perfect, can be certainly fit for purpose. If you want absolutely precise framing then an EVF or even a different (none-M) lens and SLR/EVF would be a better solution, at the expense of bulk. The M camera is best suited to 35/50/90 lenses for many reasons but will work with other focal lengths. For me 21-90 are a very acceptable set of focal lengths and I'm happy to use these as intended and use OVFs if I need to. Given that anything beyond 20mm is an ultrawide lens and therefore, for most of us, is of limited use (they are all too often overused poorly IMO) I would only buy one for an M for specific purposes If I had any such purposes (I currently don't). For Ultrawide lenses there are better camera options.

[Ernstk]

9 hours ago, Al Brown said:

24mm is still doable without external OVF (outer border edges of your M240 camera OVF apply), 21mm is no more. But you just frame in the camera finder and shoot... if it is too wide, you go closer. If you cannot go closer, you cannot do anything anyway with the given focal length. You are not wasting film so one test shot will not hurt.

I constantly shoot 12mm without external EVF/OVF on my M10-R. A treat. No frills, no problems whatsoever. You learn to guesstimate the coverage.
Check a typical photo I do with 12mm and no OVF/EVF here.

That's a great photo.

Ernst

[laowai_]

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The field of view of a 21 mm lens on a full frame sensor is around 90 degrees. You can 'eyeball' 90 degrees somewhat reliably.

[RayD28]

I always use an ofv with a 21mm because a slight tilt up or down can dramatically change the desired outcome of the shot.  

[tommonego@gmail.com]

One of my first Leicas was a IIIc with a 25 f4 Nikkor lens on it. I would use the rangefinder window and a 28mm viewfinder, some times just set the lens to cover the area I was using and just use the viewfinder. I wear glasses and the IIIc viewfinder was close to impossible. It became second nature to use the OVF. I still think Leicas look cool with an external finder. I currently have a 25 Canon LTM and an 18mm Zeiss for my M8. I am not sure how much I would use the 18 on my M3, to justify another viewfinder.   

[rramesh]

It really depends if you are willing to crop and if so how much. For critical framing the best would be an EVF on an EVF suitable camera. An OVF would work as well unless one needs to take photos up close e.g. architecture. 
 

For a long time I used a 21 SEM on an M9 with no OVF. Sometimes I took multiple shots to avoid excessive cropping. The Visoflex on my M10 is perfect.